organic ports

[D Lapassion]

Hello,
What organic ports do you know?
Thank's

[Andy Velebil]

If memory serves, the following producers have an organic Port. Not sure if they are available in your country but I assume you could ship within the EU fairly easily.

Quevedo Bio Port Reserve Ruby
Fonseca Terra Prima Ruby
Dalva Pure Reserve
Graham's Natura
Casal dos Jordoes Fine Tawny Organic

[Frederick Blais]

Niepoort Bioma Vintage also
Quevedo did release a couple others under Trovisca. Their LBV 2016 and Vintage 2017, also Ruby and Tawny.

[D Lapassion]

Thank's!

[Claus P]

Infantado makes an organic ruby reserve as well

[D Lapassion]

well! I also found Maynard's

there should be more .... no?

[Glenn E.]

Most Port could be labeled as organic because it's produced in a very natural way. But the certification process is rather onerous, so most of the producers don't bother.

Furthermore, at least in the US the term "organic" has no legal definition. It literally means whatever the manufacturer wants it to mean on a label, which means that from a consumer's point of view it is basically meaningless.

I wouldn't put too much mental energy into it for Port. All Port is essentially already "organic" whatever that means, it just isn't certified so it can't say that on the label.

[D Lapassion]

Thanks Glenn for your answer!
However, in Europe, "organic wine" corresponds to very precise specifications (I know that certification is quite expensive). A lot of producers claim to 'do like organic' but in fact they continue to use products that are dangerous for them and for us consumers. In the list we have compiled here, there are a lack of big houses (I doubt the cost certification is important for them) ...: Taylor's, Dow's, Ramos, .... that's why I'm asking myself questions ... I'm going to question them.

[Glenn E.]

Thanks Glenn for your answer!
However, in Europe, "organic wine" corresponds to very precise specifications (I know that certification is quite expensive). A lot of producers claim to 'do like organic' but in fact they continue to use products that are dangerous for them and for us consumers. In the list we have compiled here, there are a lack of big houses (I doubt the cost certification is important for them) ...: Taylor's, Dow's, Ramos, .... that's why I'm asking myself questions ... I'm going to question them.

Portuguese law prohibits the use of most (if not all) of the products that you're talking about, which is why most (if not all) Port could be classified as organic if the producers wanted to go through the process (and expense) of certification. That process is complicated and expensive at any level, but more so for larger Port producers.

It is much harder for the big houses to get certification because of how they acquire their grapes. Most Port is a blend of grapes from many farms and vineyards, and to be certified the producer would have to go through the process for each and every one of the vineyards that they buy from. Or they would have to require that the vineyard owners do it, which most of those owners simply cannot afford.

Smaller producers, or in some cases larger producers who have distinct plots that they can control very precisely, are able to go through the hassle of getting certified. That's why you only really see smaller producers or distinct plots being produced with the "organic" label.

So for the most part, it just isn't worth it. It adds significant cost to the grapes and that cost cannot be fully recovered in the price of the wine because most people aren't willing to pay the extra cost.

These questions have been asked before, but by all means do ask the producers again and please report back here with their answers. It's been a while since we've asked a broader group about it. But I do suspect that the answer you're going to get is "we could certify our wines as organic, but we don't think it's worth the trouble."

[Eric Menchen]

I recall a discussion with one of the Port winemakers who explained that after learning about organic production methods, he intended to incorporate a lot of it into their winemaking, but not all of it. That's because in some cases being 100% organic isn't what's best for the environment. It might be better to be just 90% organic. That's because organic doesn't mean that you don't use pesticides or herbicides, etc. It means that everything must be organic, and not synthetic. But there are plenty of nasty organic things out there. Hemlock is a natural plant. It can kill you. Likewise, there are natural pesticides that can be bad for humans or the environment. I don't know the current status of rotenone, but it has been approved for use under organic certification at various times. As for wine, I think a specific product mentioned was copper. Copper is a naturally product, and can be used to treat certified organic grape vines for fungus and/or powdery mildew. But if you have to use 10 times as much compared to a product that isn't allowed under organic certification, is that better?

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... n-oxymoron

https://fifthseasongardening.com/organi ... infections

With long term use, copper can accumulate in the soil and eventually make it to streams as runoff. Large accumulations of copper can reduce the diversity of naturally occurring plant life. It’s unlikely that home gardeners will contribute to this problem, but it is a factor to consider.

[Andy Velebil]

Thanks Glenn for your answer!
However, in Europe, "organic wine" corresponds to very precise specifications (I know that certification is quite expensive). A lot of producers claim to 'do like organic' but in fact they continue to use products that are dangerous for them and for us consumers. In the list we have compiled here, there are a lack of big houses (I doubt the cost certification is important for them) ...: Taylor's, Dow's, Ramos, .... that's why I'm asking myself questions ... I'm going to question them.

Not to be rude, but from a factual standpoint, organic “chemicals” used in vineyards are far more toxic to humans than what can be used in a non organic vineyard.

“Organic” is the biggest misunderstood thing in food/wine production there is.

[Eric Ifune]

There's this article. Written by a former viticulturist for the Symingtons.
https://worldoffinewine.com/2015/10/29/ ... m-4704802/

[Glenn E.]

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-sho ... n-oxymoron

There's a quote at the end of this article that struck a chord for me:

"I'd rather buy food from someone who used Roundup once than someone who uses organic pesticides all the time."

Out here in the Pacific Northwest, blackberries are a plague. They're everywhere, they grow like weeds (some argue that the are weeds), and you can't beat them back or kill them organically. Some hire herds of goats to eat them, but a year or two later they're back.

I had blackberries behind the hedge in my back yard and tried all the normal remedies for a few years, but the infestation continued to grow and was threatening to strangle and kill the hedge. So that's when I dipped back into my farm-community upbringing in Nebraska and went looking for a weed killer that I knew would work because I'd seen it used repeatedly on fence rows. But it's practically a swear word around here...

Roundup. Specifically, Roundup for Woody Plants.

You spray it carefully on the leaves of the vines. You don't have to get them all, and you don't have to soak them. Just be careful, spray from close range, and get the last couple of feet of each vine. Then wait. 2-3 weeks. You'll think that nothing is happening and that once again the blackberries have won. Then about the time you're ready to give up and call the local goat herder... they just up and die overnight. Dead, brown, withered. Not a speck of green left on them. All you have to do is collected the dry, brittle husks and toss 'em in your compost bin. (Use heavy gloves, those blasted things have thorns everywhere and when they're dead and dried those little buggers are sharp.)

What's my point? I applied Roundup for Woody Plants once about 10-15 years ago. Haven't seen a blackberry since. Even got some that were encroaching on my neighbor's hedge for him.

The people using "safe" and "organic" techniques? They're spraying/hacking/munching with goats every year. Sometimes twice a year. I don't know what they're spraying with, but they soak the blackberries with whatever it is. It drives them back a bit, but it never completely kills them so you just have to do it again and again.

So which is really safer? I get that people hate Monsanto and think Roundup/glyphosate is the root of all evil, but it works and it works fast. And if you're careful when you use it, there is no collateral damage to any other plants. I literally used it to kill blackberries that were entwined with and choking off a hedge, and I didn't damage the hedge in the process.

So I agree with the above quote, and that applies to Port too.

[Frederick Blais]

One of the main problem in Douro for producing Organic Ports is the certification required. It requires that all the grapes that goes into your Port comes from organic vineyard, which is normal. The reality is that most companies buy from over 200 small producers. Imagine the paperwork required to get the certifications for that. Most of those small producers own less than half an hectare, they go there 2-3 times per year and they spray easy chemicals to maintain it while they are not there.

I don't want to get into the fight of using none or little chemicals is better than bio. Yes some organic products are dangerous for men if ingested. It all comes down to how it is decomposing in the end. If one leaves no trace and melts back with the nature, it is much better than the other one that has heavy metal that eventually keeps on concentrating in underground water or rivers.

When you have 36000 hectares of vines being sprayed weed killer at the same time, you can smell it in the air for a few days in the Douro. Then when it rains, it all goes back to the river, and I can tell you that local DO AVOID to swim in the Douro in those days!

[Andy Velebil]

I don’t think anyone swims in the Douro west of the Tua River. I was originally told Pinhao. But with the all those river boats dumping, I’d give it a wide berth.

I only will swim in the far eastern ends of it.

[D Lapassion]

Thank you to all those who responded to my message. Being neither a winemaker nor a chemist, I am a little confused by the way some messages have been presented (at least as far as I can tell from my translator). My intention was not to be for or against organic! There will always be defenders of goats and that's good, there will always be winegrowers to let the grass grow under the row and that's good! There will always be domains that will privilege marble cellars and the remuneration of shareholders (see the great wines of Bordeaux) and that is unfortunate, there will always be fraudsters and that is unfortunate. There is a proverb in France (but it must be found in all countries): when you want to kill your dog, you say it is sick. My point was to understand why there are so few organic ports. I understand Glenn's and Frederick's arguments (by the way, we can have the same argument in France with Champagne where the big houses buy grapes from small owners who do not take care of their vines more concerned with profitability than quality) but that does not justify that there are very few single quintas in organic. I am simply trying to find out if particular geological and meteorological conditions (in fact the particularities of the specific Douro terroir) are responsible for this observation. I will like Don Quixote, pursue my Grail! A bientôt!

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[Andy Velebil]

My point was to understand why there are so few organic ports. ... I am simply trying to find out if particular geological and meteorological conditions (in fact the particularities of the specific Douro terroir) are responsible for this observation.

No geological or meteorological conditions. It's comes down to higher cost, more dangerous organic chemicals and the excess regulations to make a Port that tastes exactly the same as one not made by organic means.

I'd also guess there is not much demand from consumers for an organic Port. So not worth the investment to sell so few bottles.

[Eric Menchen]

I am simply trying to find out if particular geological and meteorological conditions (in fact the particularities of the specific Douro terroir) are responsible for this observation. I will like Don Quixote, pursue my Grail! A bientôt!

There is a historical element that the inheritance laws in Portugal once required that property be divided among heirs resulting in a very large number of very small plots of land. I suspect the average single owner vineyard in the Douro may be smaller than Champagne or other regions of the world.

[Frederick Blais]

It is said that they are over 35 000 land owners in the Douro for around 300 producers.

Andy, the demand for Bio Port is very high. For example in Quebec, Canada, you can't get a new listing unless you are Bio or 95pts+ in RP or WS.
At my lodge in Quevedo, as soon as I say the word Bio, people want to try. It is our best seller after the entry level Ports. Samething when I go to wine bars in Porto, it is the only Port the owners are interested to have on their lists.

The logistic in the Douro as outline above is complicated...

In terms of climate, Douro is one of the easiest place to be Bio. It is so dry, you need so much less treatment than most of the places. 3-5 times less treatment in Douro than Bordeaux for example.

But in Douro, you are lucky if you can get 5tons per hectare of production. In Champagne, the average yields is like 60-80 tons per hectare. Going organic decrease your production by about 15-25% and you have more work to do in the field as a result. Cutting the herbs on the slope of the patamares is not an easy task! Economically it is a very difficult decision to take in the Douro, it means you need to insure you'll sell your product at a higher price. This is not Champagne that everyone buys at any price because of the bubbles :)

Then you add the paper works in the equation, forget it! For example, Niepoort converted to organic all of its quintas in Portugal. Yet in the Douro it makes only 2(3 soon) wines organic. It is a simple question of papers.

[Andy Velebil]

Andy, the demand for Bio Port is very high. For example in Quebec, Canada, you can't get a new listing unless you are Bio or 95pts+ in RP or WS.
At my lodge in Quevedo, as soon as I say the word Bio, people want to try. It is our best seller after the entry level Ports. Samething when I go to wine bars in Porto, it is the only Port the owners are interested to have on their lists.

If people only knew the truth. So it's trendy right now in places. When the trend ends and Bio/organic isn't the current "in thing" what does a Port producer do? Oh wait, just rename it something else

Yesterday I was talking to a friend in the wine industry here in Cali. Apparently, the popular thing here now is "Natural" wines, which I'm told is different than Bio/organic wines. It's insane what people buy into with a little advertising.