What significance has the recency of bottling had for you?

[Nigel Bruce]

I started a madeira thread on the Terrantez grape some months back.
This comment on that thread from one Board member has prompted me to start this new thread:
"I’ve tasted H&H1954, D’Oliveiras 1971, Blandy 1976 and 1977, Cossart 1977, D’Oliveiras 1977 (2009 & 2018 bottling), D’Oliveiras 1988 (2019)
All very tasty. Though, if I had to pick a favourite it would be the 2018 bottling of D’Oliveiras 1977. The extra 9 years in cask made a big difference from the previous bottling."
- this got me to wondering if other Board members share this experience - that an increase in years in cask has inevitably yielded an appreciable increase in quality in the same madeira. Specific examples would be appreciated...

[Eric Ifune]

1977 D'Oliveiras both as Colheita and Frasquera. 1968 D'Oliveiras Bual. Multiple botlings.

[Nigel Bruce]

Hi Eric,
Has each of those madeiras improved for you with successive bottlings - more than the same bottling drunk after several more years in bottle? That's the comparison I'm looking for.
Best,
Nigel

[Eric Ifune]

Yes, both improved. Especially the Terrantez.

[Nigel Bruce]

Thanks, Eric. That rhymes with what Roy recently said about that Madeira.

[Yev Nyden]

On the topic of comparing different bottlings.

During the 2021 Madeirathon, I was quite impressed by the D'Oliveiras 1973 Verdelho. I singled that Verdelho as one of the two of my favorite meio-seco (semi-dry) madeiras (the other one was the 1890). Later, at home I opened a bottle of the same vintage bottled in 2013 and was surprised to find it to be lacking some of the character I've encountered during the tasting at D'Oliveiras. Or perhaps, it always tastes differently when Luis D’Oliveira personally pores it for you, I thought... Then, I opened another bottle of 1973 bottled in 2019 (the same bottling as we tried at D'Oliveiras), and to my surprise found the familiar flavor and character I was looking for. Now, I can't wait to try the 2021 bottling I just got from RareCo!!

Maybe this could also explain the humble rating Roy gave to 1973 verdelho in 2008 - https://www.fortheloveofport.com/tndb/1 ... ge-Madeira - though I wonder which bottling it was.

[Nigel Bruce]

Hi Mr. Zee,
That's an encouraging report - I must try to get hold of some bottles of the latest release of that wine.
Nigel

[Le Gamin de Paris]

I’m wondering whether anyone has any strong opinions about the other end of the spectrum i.e. can a wine spend too long in cask?

For example, I recently tasted a new bottling of D’Oliveiras 1850 Verdelho. It was very tasty although I couldn’t help thinking that the other bottles I’ve had from earlier bottlings (1970s) were more subtle and elegant. Has anyone had the chance to try an older and newer 1850 V side by side?

Also thinking of Blandy’s lovely Boal from 1920. I was surprised they chose to transfer from cask to glass demijohn in 2017, 3 years before the 100-year anniversary. I’m assuming this was done for the right reasons. Similar question to the previous one, has anyone tried the 1920 B from differing bottlings, any preferences?

[Michael R]

A very interesting question - on several occasions I have heard from Ricardo stories about wines being damaged by spending too much time in cask. He emphasized the importance of finding the right moment to transfer to demijohns and he was talking about the wines much younger than the D'Oliveiras greats. E.g., the "secret ingredient" in the RWC Historic Series is Tinta Negra from the early 1950s that belonged to the Favilla Vieira family and is too concentrated after long cask aging to be bottled on its own. Yet, somehow, D'Oliveira successfully keeps theirs in cask for a 100+ years.

I did try the two 1850s Verdelhos side by side about 5 years ago - one was an 1970s bottling while another spent less than 5 years in the bottle. Upon opening, the older bottling had much more nuance (both were very good). I kept both open for over a year and by the end the difference almost disappeared (the newer one gained in complexity). At the 2021 Madeirathon we had similarly tasted two 1875 D'Oliveiras Malvazias (from the 1970s and a new bottling); most of us (but not everybody) preferred the older one.

I does not appear that too much time in cask is the problem for these; I rater think the common theme with the D'Oliveira style is that their cask aged wines gain additional dimension after glass aging. I am not sure this holds for all styles of madeira. Perhaps long time in wood calls for additional long time in glass.

Unrelated to the aging topic, there was an interesting twist we have learned from Louis D'Oliveira - the older bottling of the 1875 Malvazia had 158g/l of residual sugar which would not be allowed by the current regulations, so for the new bottlings the wine was somehow brought into compliance.

Correction: After reading the responses below I have reviewed my notes and I now believe that 158g/l is, actually, the sugar level in the current compliant bottling. The levels in the old bottling were much higher, but Louis did not give us the exact number. Glenn, thank you for noticing!

[Glenn E.]

Unrelated to the aging topic, there was an interesting twist we have learned from Louis D'Oliveira - the older bottling of the 1875 Malvazia had 158g/l of residual sugar which would not be allowed by the current regulations, so for the new bottlings the wine was somehow brought into compliance.

Is 158 g/l too little or too much according to the current regulations?

[Michael R]

too much

[Glenn E.]

too much

Really. Very interesting. I suspect that a lot of D'Oliveiras Malvasias were treading perilously close to that line, then, as some of them taste to me like that have considerably more than 158 g/l of residual sugar in them, such as the aforementioned 1875 Family Reserve.

Now I'm wondering which bottling my pair are. I got them in 2016, so I'm guessing that would be after they were adjusted for the current regulations?

[Jim S.]

I've always enjoyed Madeira with some bottle age. More recent bottlings show more richness and power (which I can appreciate); older bottlings show a delicacy, with thought provoking filigree. On 5/29/17, I wrote the following PM to a fellow member: "Being curious, I thought about opening a fresh bottle of the 1920, to see if I've missed something. Then I thought I should revisit the bottles that I already have open. So I took out 2 glasses and 2 open bottles of the 1920 Blandy's Bual; one had been opened on 09/02/2014 (an older bottling), and the other was opened on 09/07/2015 (a more recent bottling, but probably from ~1990). I was shocked at how good they were. Totally different than I remembered.
They were both electric, mouth-filling, and complex, with fantastic balance, between lime and caramel, and undertones of marzipan. The older bottling had a wintergreen note, which was completely absent in the more recent one. If you'd like me to send a photo of those bottles, I still have your wife's cell#, and I can text it to her, or you can send me your cell#...or not.
Hope you're having a great weekend."

[Nigel Bruce]

Thanks to everyone for fascinating input. I should elaborate that my own purchases are nearly all post 1970 vintages. That means the first bottlings as vintage madeira will have been post-1990. For drinking these now, I followed the principle that I should seek out the latest bottlings to be able to get the most impact from the wood-ageing process. I'm not sure in this relatively short age bracket it's possible for these wines to be over-exposed to wood.
When most CT posters never mention the bottling date on their vintage madeiras, it's hard to get much input from the many available TNs.

[Nigel Bruce]

Thanks to everyone for fascinating input. I should elaborate that my own purchases are nearly all post 1970 vintages. That means the first bottlings as vintage madeira will have been post-1990. For drinking these now, I followed the principle that I should seek out the latest bottlings to be able to get the most impact from the wood-ageing process. I'm not sure in this relatively short age bracket it's possible for these wines to be over-exposed to wood.
When most CT posters never mention the bottling date on their vintage madeiras, it's hard to get much input from the many available TNs.

[Michael R]

My personal rule of thumb for opening the 1970s-1990s vintages is:
a. Let the wines have at least 2 years in the bottle
b. Use the most recent bottling I can get my hands on without violating rule a.

[Nigel Bruce]

Michael: