Conventional wisdom states that Madeira should be stored upright as opposed to "on it's side", presumably since oxidation is not a serious enemy to this type of wine and a drying cork poses no hazard.
But if stored on it's side -- will it hurt? It seems if upright or "on its side" will do, why not be safe and store it "on its side"? I think I read somewhere that since Madeira is high in acid it can leach impurities from the cork... but what about other high acid wines? Riesling... Loire whites... etc?
Is there a compelling reason to not store Madeira "on its side"?
Storing Madeira "on it's side"?
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Marco D.
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Storing Madeira "on it's side"?
Marco DeFreitas Connecticut, USA
Some very good questions.
Both vertical and horizontal storage have advocates. And there are probably some regional differences: in Madeira the climate is very humid, but if you live somewhere very dry climate you may prefer horizontal storage.
The acidity argument is the common one for vertical storage, compounded by the common use of very small corks. Btw, as far as I am aware, the argument isn't usually about leaching out impurities, but purely one of just disintegrating the cork. In the Blandy's shop in Funchal they sell those useful devices for extracting corks from bottles. Certainly on certain old vintage wines the corks can be very difficult to remove whole however careful you are. But isn't the same true of other old wines that have the original cork (cf Port)?
I know of an example of a customised bottling of a fairly basic wine using full length driven corks for an Oxford College that wanted to store wine on its side in traditional bins. But maybe this acidity argument is somewhat overdone and I have seen wine that has been on its side for 50 years with no problem (admitedly without the really tiny 2cm corks).
Another rationale for vertical storage is that having an imperfect seal allows the wine to breathe somewhat. (Cossart even recommends removing wax seals to enable this further.) I guess this might prevent a certain amount of bottle stink.
A third argument which I have heard is that vertical vs horizontal storage doesn't really matter very much, but as there is a slightly smaller chance of TCA contamination if the bottles are always stored upright, one might as well do that.
A final reason that I would advocate for people buying old vintages that haven't been recorked or bottled recently, is that there is quite a high chance that the cork will be loose and will allow seepage is the wine is stored horizontally: this is perhaps less likely if the bottle has been resting on its side historically. I think this last reason is a pretty compelling one for anyone with vintage or solera wines bottled in the 50's or 60's or earlier which have not been recorked.
Paul
Both vertical and horizontal storage have advocates. And there are probably some regional differences: in Madeira the climate is very humid, but if you live somewhere very dry climate you may prefer horizontal storage.
The acidity argument is the common one for vertical storage, compounded by the common use of very small corks. Btw, as far as I am aware, the argument isn't usually about leaching out impurities, but purely one of just disintegrating the cork. In the Blandy's shop in Funchal they sell those useful devices for extracting corks from bottles. Certainly on certain old vintage wines the corks can be very difficult to remove whole however careful you are. But isn't the same true of other old wines that have the original cork (cf Port)?
I know of an example of a customised bottling of a fairly basic wine using full length driven corks for an Oxford College that wanted to store wine on its side in traditional bins. But maybe this acidity argument is somewhat overdone and I have seen wine that has been on its side for 50 years with no problem (admitedly without the really tiny 2cm corks).
Another rationale for vertical storage is that having an imperfect seal allows the wine to breathe somewhat. (Cossart even recommends removing wax seals to enable this further.) I guess this might prevent a certain amount of bottle stink.
A third argument which I have heard is that vertical vs horizontal storage doesn't really matter very much, but as there is a slightly smaller chance of TCA contamination if the bottles are always stored upright, one might as well do that.
A final reason that I would advocate for people buying old vintages that haven't been recorked or bottled recently, is that there is quite a high chance that the cork will be loose and will allow seepage is the wine is stored horizontally: this is perhaps less likely if the bottle has been resting on its side historically. I think this last reason is a pretty compelling one for anyone with vintage or solera wines bottled in the 50's or 60's or earlier which have not been recorked.
Paul
The acidity argument is the common one for vertical storage, compounded by the common use of very small corks. Btw, as far as I am aware, the argument isn't usually about leaching out impurities, but purely one of just disintegrating the cork.
Excellent response Paul. You made a handful of fine points. I do not believe there is any wine type that has a higher degree of acidity. In fact VA is prominent in just about all Madeiras and you can't say the same for any other wine except possibly Sherry.
Regardless, I have had old bottles of Tokaji that I have opened from the 1830s with smaller and cheaper corks (500 ml bottles ALWAYS) and the wine had not deteriorated the original corks. I can say the same with Port and other very old wines I have opened.
I would be shocked if anyone here has EVER had a corked bottle of Madeira. The likelihood is lower (from my wine experience) than ANY other wine type in the world. Is that the acidity? Maybe, but I am not sure if that would be enough to kill the TCA and doubt it ... but again, I don't know. Is it the corks used in Madeira? Definitely not.
What I do know is that there is little to gain by laying 'em down on their sides, but from what I have seen in Madeira, it is not a big deal to lay 'em on their sides either. I agree that the biggest concern would be the cork's elasticity failing over many years (meaning 75-200 years) and then having wine seepage. The bottles in our cellars that have been bottled in the past 30 years ... don't worry at all, as long as your cellar is within the proper temperature and humidity range.
By the way, I store mine lying down.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Roy,
A few comments.
> I do not believe there is any wine type that has a higher degree of acidity. In fact VA is prominent in just about all Madeiras and you can't say the same for any other wine except possibly Sherry.
In fact, the total acidity in Madeira isn't as high as you might think. Look at any of the statistical handouts provided by the shippers on their current releases. For example, Blandys 10yr Malmsey has a TA (6.68 g/l as tartaric) that wouldn't be out of place for a Bordeaux red.
http://www.fells.co.uk/documents/blandy ... almsey.pdf
Admitedly older vintage wines can have much more elevated acidity and high VA. But I doubt if total acidity is ever like an severe Mosel Eiswein, say.
> I have had old bottles of Tokaji that I have opened from the 1830s with smaller and cheaper corks (500 ml bottles ALWAYS) and the wine had not deteriorated the original corks. I
Tokay is the other historic wine that was been traditionally stored upright.
> I would be shocked if anyone here has EVER had a corked bottle of Madeira. The likelihood is lower (from my wine experience) than ANY other wine type in the world. Is that the acidity? Maybe, but I am not sure if that would be enough to kill the TCA and doubt it ... but again, I don't know. Is it the corks used in Madeira? Definitely not.
You've been very lucky. A corked Madeira is just as likely and as bad as any other corked wine. I recently asked Francisco Albuquerque, winemaker of MWC about corked wines (in the context of recorking old vintages) and he said the percentage of corked bottles was in line with other wines. Also Richard Mayson writes in the Oxford Companion:
"Shippers carrying stocks of old vintages are so confident of madeira's ability to withstand oxidation that they keep the bottles standing upright so that there is no risk of a poor or tainted cork spoiling the wine."
Paul
A few comments.
> I do not believe there is any wine type that has a higher degree of acidity. In fact VA is prominent in just about all Madeiras and you can't say the same for any other wine except possibly Sherry.
In fact, the total acidity in Madeira isn't as high as you might think. Look at any of the statistical handouts provided by the shippers on their current releases. For example, Blandys 10yr Malmsey has a TA (6.68 g/l as tartaric) that wouldn't be out of place for a Bordeaux red.
http://www.fells.co.uk/documents/blandy ... almsey.pdf
Admitedly older vintage wines can have much more elevated acidity and high VA. But I doubt if total acidity is ever like an severe Mosel Eiswein, say.
> I have had old bottles of Tokaji that I have opened from the 1830s with smaller and cheaper corks (500 ml bottles ALWAYS) and the wine had not deteriorated the original corks. I
Tokay is the other historic wine that was been traditionally stored upright.
> I would be shocked if anyone here has EVER had a corked bottle of Madeira. The likelihood is lower (from my wine experience) than ANY other wine type in the world. Is that the acidity? Maybe, but I am not sure if that would be enough to kill the TCA and doubt it ... but again, I don't know. Is it the corks used in Madeira? Definitely not.
You've been very lucky. A corked Madeira is just as likely and as bad as any other corked wine. I recently asked Francisco Albuquerque, winemaker of MWC about corked wines (in the context of recorking old vintages) and he said the percentage of corked bottles was in line with other wines. Also Richard Mayson writes in the Oxford Companion:
"Shippers carrying stocks of old vintages are so confident of madeira's ability to withstand oxidation that they keep the bottles standing upright so that there is no risk of a poor or tainted cork spoiling the wine."
Paul
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Marco D.
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Excellent info in this thread... thanks.
Until I find some compelling reason to store my Madeira upright, I think I will continue to store mine on its side. Having said that, I did find this little tidbit about storing wine upright. Some research was supposedly done that found a cork adhered better when the bottle was upright (it took 100 lbs of force to extract the cork) as opposed to on its side (which took 25 lbs of force). No info on how old the bottles were and I could not find any more info on this. The link is here.
Until I find some compelling reason to store my Madeira upright, I think I will continue to store mine on its side. Having said that, I did find this little tidbit about storing wine upright. Some research was supposedly done that found a cork adhered better when the bottle was upright (it took 100 lbs of force to extract the cork) as opposed to on its side (which took 25 lbs of force). No info on how old the bottles were and I could not find any more info on this. The link is here.
Marco DeFreitas Connecticut, USA
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Steven Kooij
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Steven,
I dunno, I've had some very old Port bottles with even better corks than Madeira that did dry out ... even with wax protective capsules. But I do agree the likelihood is reduced.
As far as corked Madeira, has ANYBODY here ever had one?
On the Ebob website, when this identical topic came up ... nobody had ever experienced a corked Madeira. I am sure they do exist, but it would be interesting to find out about that. I will email Richard and some others to ask the question.
I dunno, I've had some very old Port bottles with even better corks than Madeira that did dry out ... even with wax protective capsules. But I do agree the likelihood is reduced.
As far as corked Madeira, has ANYBODY here ever had one?
On the Ebob website, when this identical topic came up ... nobody had ever experienced a corked Madeira. I am sure they do exist, but it would be interesting to find out about that. I will email Richard and some others to ask the question.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
> As far as corked Madeira, has ANYBODY here ever had one?
Yes. For one specific example, when Patrick Grubb put on a tasting of over thirty vintage and solera wines a few years ago, one of the younger vintage wines from MWC was corked.
When it occurs, bad TCA spoilage is just as bad in Madeira as in anything else.
> On the Ebob website, when this identical topic came up ... nobody had > ever experienced a corked Madeira.
I assume this is the topic "What is the least likely wine to be corked". Most of the thread wasn't focused on Madeira. The two responses to Roy's question were:
(1) "Agree on the vintage Madeira, since most of them were bottled before TCA was invented!"
(2) "I am 100% with Mark that no group of wines is immune to cork TCA, and I am with Roy Hersh that vintage Madeira probably is the group with the least problem (although my tasting experience with these is not *that* large)."
I think these responses give clues: there may be a smaller reported incidence of TCA problems, because not too many people open large amounts of Madeira frequently (has anybody had problems with corked sherry wine vinegar or olive oil in bottles with driven corks?) and that there is a lesser reported incidence with older corks in general.
Paul
Yes. For one specific example, when Patrick Grubb put on a tasting of over thirty vintage and solera wines a few years ago, one of the younger vintage wines from MWC was corked.
When it occurs, bad TCA spoilage is just as bad in Madeira as in anything else.
> On the Ebob website, when this identical topic came up ... nobody had > ever experienced a corked Madeira.
I assume this is the topic "What is the least likely wine to be corked". Most of the thread wasn't focused on Madeira. The two responses to Roy's question were:
(1) "Agree on the vintage Madeira, since most of them were bottled before TCA was invented!"
(2) "I am 100% with Mark that no group of wines is immune to cork TCA, and I am with Roy Hersh that vintage Madeira probably is the group with the least problem (although my tasting experience with these is not *that* large)."
I think these responses give clues: there may be a smaller reported incidence of TCA problems, because not too many people open large amounts of Madeira frequently (has anybody had problems with corked sherry wine vinegar or olive oil in bottles with driven corks?) and that there is a lesser reported incidence with older corks in general.
Paul
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Eric Ifune
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"A related thought - I believe most old Madeira bottles are sealed with wax. Provided the sealing has no chips or cracks, the wax should provide an air-tight seal, and the cork can't dry out even when stored standing up. I could be wrong, of course..."
Actually wax is permeable to oxygen so the wax coating will have no effect.
I perfer to store madeira upright mainly because the corks are sometimes so crappy that I worry about the liquid leaking out!+
Actually wax is permeable to oxygen so the wax coating will have no effect.
I perfer to store madeira upright mainly because the corks are sometimes so crappy that I worry about the liquid leaking out!+
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Bob Hughes
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I definitely store them upright as often as possible. Why risk cork taint if you don't have to? When you speak to producers on the island, they often recommend doing this (i.e., upright) because of the wine's acidity (Barros is absolutely insistent on it).
I figure these guys know more about their wines than I do, so why ignore their advice on how to store them?
I figure these guys know more about their wines than I do, so why ignore their advice on how to store them?
Makes for perfect logic Bob, thanks. The only issue for some folks is that their cellars are layed out solely with horizontal racking, making it more difficult to stand up bottles. I know I can't do that, but I might do so if my configuration was different in the cellar.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Marco D.
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Another interesting question is: if someone decides to store their Madeira in an upright position after years on having it stored on it's side, does it matter? Is the (possible) harm already done after years of storing it on it's side. The more I read, the more I might be tempted to store it upright... but after years of having them on their side, I doubt it will make a difference.
Marco DeFreitas Connecticut, USA
A salient point indeed Mr. Defreitas.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
One more point...
Logistically, if you collect *and drink* madeira, a decent percentage of your bottles at any one time are likely to be open and stored vertically (since there is no significant deterioration for months, and half the joy of madeira is comparing different styles & vintages and assessing its developement in bottle once open).
If you have to figured out a way to store or display these bottles you often have a solution for unopened bottles...
Logistically, if you collect *and drink* madeira, a decent percentage of your bottles at any one time are likely to be open and stored vertically (since there is no significant deterioration for months, and half the joy of madeira is comparing different styles & vintages and assessing its developement in bottle once open).
If you have to figured out a way to store or display these bottles you often have a solution for unopened bottles...
Forum member Paul Napolitano does that. I remember going to his home for a tasting of reds and he had six open bottles of great Madeira. There were five or six of us there and not a single bottle of Madeira was standing when we left. THey were horizontal in his recycling bin.
That is the issue with OPEN bottles of Madeira! They are way too tempting and would never last in my home. I am better off laying 'em down in my cellar.
That is the issue with OPEN bottles of Madeira! They are way too tempting and would never last in my home. I am better off laying 'em down in my cellar.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com