Counterfeit Bottles

[Moses Botbol]

Have you ever bought a counterfeit bottle port or suspected your bottle of port was counterfeited? I do not mean, the bottle was thought to be “A” and it was really “B”, but a real faker…

We could expand this into dry wines too…

[Andy Velebil]

I've never bought one myself, at least none that I thought were counterfeit. But I did have one at that Boston tasting you were at last year. IIRC it was bought at auction and returned after we discovered it was a fake. But I have heard first hand stories of fakes being found in the market place.

[Moses Botbol]

I've never bought one myself, at least none that I thought were counterfeit. But I did have one at that Boston tasting you were at last year. IIRC it was bought at auction and returned after we discovered it was a fake. But I have heard first hand stories of fakes being found in the market place.

That was partly due to ignorance of the auction house; should've never made it to the auction block. Faking a vintage that was never declared is a bit odd and the fact that it was not even grape port is even odder. The label was quite odd that it looked like copy of a Croft label or something. I had an 1896 Dow that I would venture to say was not port either. The most horrible metallic taste that I can still taste when thinking of it. Was bought at auction and they took it back.

I can see how an auction house can be duped. A known collector dies or whatever and his collection is picked up. If he has 100's of legit bottles, who would think one or two bottles with a hand written label would be fake or not what it says? The auction house does not scrutinize every bottle the same. They'll look at DRC and Petrus with different eyes, than they would a Taylor or Fonseca.

One plus of buying from an auction house is being able to return fake bottles or misrepresented bottles.

[Mark DaSilva]

The 1937 Porto Rocha bottles almost seem like counterfeit as the labels look brand new. I expected wax covered tops (like Warre's 1960), wilted labels, hard to read lettering...

At over $600 bucks a pop, you better hope its real and aged appropriately.

No complaints yet.

[Moses Botbol]

The 1937 Porto Rocha bottles almost seem like counterfeit as the labels look brand new. I expected wax covered tops (like Warre's 1960), wilted labels, hard to read lettering...

At over $600 bucks a pop, you better hope its real and aged appropriately.

No complaints yet.

Labels don't mean much. The shape of bottle, the glass color & surface, as well as the capsule are the best indicators of the correct era for the bottle. What is the capsule look like?

[Marc J.]

I recently purchased a bottle that I suspected had been altered. For whatever reason there was a label under a label and that in itself raises a red flag. Over the the last 40+ years the top label had been battered quite a bit which revealed the second label. Although the capsule was clearly branded, I still wonder why the label had been covered and also why a secondary label had been moved from the bottom of the bottle to the top.....

Marc

[Roy Hersh]

At last year's Cockburn's vertical in London, the 1895 was definitely a fake bottle.

At the tasting I had with you in Boston, Moses, we had that one bottle which was certainly a counterfeit Port.

The only other one I've had was a friend who had a bottle he was pretty sure was 1963 Nacional and it turned out to be 1967 Nacional instead.

[Andy Velebil]

At last year's Cockburn's vertical in London, the 1895 was definitely a fake bottle.

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If IIRC that bottle had no label was thought to be a Cockburns. The cork had "Tayl" and "18" that was visible on it. So I don't think it was a fake, but just believed to have been something it wasn't. Of course nothing against finding out it was an old Taylor's

[Moses Botbol]

Do you think some bottles are mistakenly mislabeled or that the owner at the time thought it was one thing when it was another? Counterfeiting assumes some intentional fraud.

[Andy Velebil]

Do you think some bottles are mistakenly mislabeled or that the owner at the time thought it was one thing when it was another? Counterfeiting assumes some intentional fraud.

Yes,

In the case of old bottles where the labels have come off, often the owners don't remember what exactly is left in their cellars from decades earlier. So they assume they are XXX, when they really aren't. Thats not fraud IMO, just a simple error and why at auction they are listed as "believed to be." Always a crap shoot to buy, but sometimes you win....reminds me of Las Vegas