Fonseca 1970 (Army & Navy)

[Edward Nemergut]

I recently purchased a case of wine from the UK from George Rhys as a present for myself for Christmas. It just arrived and there were a few issues:

1) I found that the case had been bottled by Army & Navy Stores (on Victoria Street in London): it was not the Oporto bottling that I expected (and that I have enjoyed in the past).
2) I feel that it should have been disclosed to me ... that I was purchasing case that was bottled in the UK. Am I correct?

The case was bottled by Army and Navy Stores. I noticed that there was some discussion about the quality work of various UK bottlers. What do people think of this bottler, especially their 1970 bottling?
Should I be bringing this up with George Rhys? I really feel that the fact that it was not Oporto bottled should have been disclosed to me. The other two cases I purchased were Oporto bottled and I thought this one also was.

ECN

[Derek T.]

Edward,

Army and Navy were indeed one of the most highly regarded of the London bottlers so I don't think that is a negative aspect of your purchase. I will look back over some old tasting notes to see if I can find an A&N bottled F70 and post details here if I can find anything.

As to the point on disclosure, I think you are correct that the merchant should have let you know that this was UK rather than Oporto bottled if it is obvious from the capsule/label. It will do no harm to point out the error of their ways even if this has no real outcome to you in this instance.

I hope you enjoy your F70 - it is a superb VP and one of my all time favourites

Derek

[Edward Nemergut]

Thanks!

I would certainly appreciate any help...

ECN

[Andreas Platt]

the case had been bottled by Army & Navy Stores (on Victoria Street in London): it was not the Oporto bottling that I expected (and that I have enjoyed in the past).
2) I feel that it should have been disclosed to me ... that I was purchasing case that was bottled in the UK. Am I correct?

Well, if i may ask (even it it's unpopular):

Who/what tells you that YOU shouldn't have asked before? Or requested a picture of the case? I generally ask for a pic if i purchase older wines. That helps.

I don't think that the seller has to tell you these things; does a store selling Champagne always provide the disgorgement year? If you want, ask, but if not then you can't blame them.

Just my 2c.

[Derek T.]

For what it's worth, I think Andreas is wrong. The bottling source is a well known factor for Port enthusiasts/merchants. It is just basic information that is always relevant and should always be disclosed. Just my

...but I agree that you should always ask for pictures and condition reports for any VP

[Glenn E.]

For what it's worth, I think Andreas is wrong. The bottling source is a well known factor for Port enthusiasts/merchants. It is just basic information that is always relevant and should always be disclosed. Just my

...but I agree that you shjould always ask for pictures and condition reports for any VP

I think perhaps what Andreas is pointing out is that it's not really safe to assume any particular bottler on a bottle of Port as old as 1970. If it's not listed, then you really have no idea and need to ask if that information is important to you. Just because Port comes from Portugal does not mean that Oporto bottling is the norm and all others exceptions, especially as far back as 1970.

Nor is it necessarily safe to assume a bottling YEAR as I found out when purchasing a 1967 Vargellas... I didn't ask, and the bottle I received in the mail turned out to have been bottled in 1970, not 1969 as I expected.

So yes, if there are details about a bottle that are important to you, you have to ask to make sure that you're getting what you want.

[Derek T.]

I suppose my main point here is that a merchant of the standing of George Rhys should know better than to not disclose this information in their price list.

[Glenn E.]

I suppose my main point here is that a merchant of the standing of George Rhys should know better than to not disclose this information in their price list.

Also very true.

[Edward Nemergut]

Thanks for all your input... I had previously purchased two cases from George back in 2007 (a case of 1970 Taylor and 1970 Dow) and both had been the Oporto bottling, so I guess I naturally assumed that the 1970 Fonseca would be the same.

Obviously, in the future, I'll remember to ask specifically...

Anyone comment directly on the quality of Army & Navy 1970 Fonseca bottling?

[Derek T.]

Anyone comment directly on the quality of Army & Navy 1970 Fonseca bottling?

Army & navy = Excellent
Fonseca = Fabulous
1970 = Yummy

To summarise:

[John Trombley]

I agree that due diligence for 1970s and previous would involve a query about where the wine was bottled. However, for sources of such reputation as Rhys, giving bottler if outside Oporto is really de rigeur. Given this, is it possible that a shipping error got the wrong case to you? That's the most important reason you should take this up with him. Please let us know his response.

[David Spriggs]

Well a few thoughts...

I think that condition is more important than bottler. A leaking Port at mid shoulder from a great bottler is not good. If the Fonseca is all Base of Neck or better, ,then you've done well. Almost all the cases of older Ports that I have purchased in the UK are UK bottled. Oporto bottled are not that common (of course, after 1974 all Ports were Oporto bottled). Typically, if it doesn't say Oporto Bottled (or OB) in the description, then it is UK bottled. Don't assume that Oporto bottled is superior to UK bottling. In my opinion, I have had many UK bottled Ports that are superior to the Oporto bottled. I would be thrilled to see the bottler as Army & Navy... that's about as good as it gets! My guess is that you have winners there.

Oh, and also agree with what was stated above -- this is one of the all-time great Ports!
-Dave-

[John Trombley]

I agree with you, David, concerning the immense quality of the 1970 Fonseca, but my experience was with the Oporto bottling. It's a true Fonseca, with all the lushness this implies, but it's got great complexity and clarity laid out on a trellis of absolutely vibrant and balanced structure. I'd rate it at perhaps 94 to 96 for the three times I've tasted it from my own cellar. It's drinking so well right now that I'm sure it must be tough for those with a stash of it to go through it all. If the Army and Navy is better than that, our friend has something indeed precious.

Unfortunately the balance of this wine was lost to me in a divorce proceeding.

[Derek T.]

Unfortunately the balance of this wine was lost to me in a divorce proceeding.

Tiger Woods problems seem insignificant compared to this

[John Trombley]

Unfortunately the balance of this wine was lost to me in a divorce proceeding.

Tiger Woods problems seem insignificant compared to this

I'm not sure Tiger is any more passionate about his putters or his game than I am about wine, so the loss of the Fonseca hurt. At least I probably spend as much time practicing as he does!

[Shawn Denkler]

I believe a merchant should give as much information as possible, and I tried to do so when I was a wine merchant. But UK bottlings are normal for 1970 and prior ports so the merchant can not be faulted for not giving more information.

[Alan Gardner]

I'm able to add my 2c.
One of the more bizarre tastings our group of geeks did was a blind tasting of 6 different bottlings of 1970 Fonseca. Both the Army & Navy and Oporto bottlings were included.
12 tasters .....and the Army & Navy and Oporto bottlings both came "in the middle" - actually 2nd through 5th were statistically indistinguishable (as well as being in a virtual tie for me personally).

We've also done the English/Oporto bottled 70 comparison several times for different houses and UK is typically better.

And to add to the interest, four of the Fonseca's were bought from Army & Navy at the same time.

The best was Grant's of St James (if I recall correctly).
But I'd take any of them again whenever posssible.

Here's a link to our last comparison of English vs Oporto bottled (but no Army & Navy in this one)

http://www.fortheloveofport.net/ftlopfo ... =12&t=4995

[David Spriggs]

Unfortunately the balance of this wine was lost to me in a divorce proceeding.

Oh... what a tragedy!

Honestly, I've had the 1970 Fonseca many times from different bottlings, and all of them were great. I have yet to have a poor bottle of this Port (knock on wood).
-Dave-

[Andy Velebil]

Unfortunately the balance of this wine was lost to me in a divorce proceeding.

Tiger Woods problems seem insignificant compared to this

I'm not sure Tiger is any more passionate about his putters or his game than I am about wine, so the loss of the Fonseca hurt. At least I probably spend as much time practicing as he does!

yeah but did you have cheap Port to drink in cities you visited?

[John Trombley]

Is it true that Tiger Williams is the first man in history to have a class-action palimony suit filed against him?