Re: 1983 Cockburn's Vintage Port

[Peter W. Meek]

This topic was split from the 1983 Cockburn VP tasting note HERE (Andy)


Has anyone tried the Saran Wrap(tm) method of removing TCA on a bottle of 1983 Cockburn? There seem to be a lot of people buying a wine that is 75% (83%?) likely to be corked. It seems like some experimentation is in order.

(Reminding you all that Saran is a completely different plastic than most food wraps are made from.)

Googling on [ corked saran ] gets 6.5 million hits. Most of the first 50 (that apply to this) say it works; the ones that don't often say they used some generic food wrap.

You would miss the first 24 hours of change in the wine, but you might gas the bottle to slow any changes, before recorking to let the Saran do its magic.

The question is: does corking (and removing the TCA taint) also damage the wine in some other ways?

Unlike most descriptions, I made a thing like a long needle with a 5/16 inch eye out of 1/16" stainless steel wire. I fanfold or accordion-pleat 24 inches of Saran, rather than roll it, to get the most surface exposed (without having to agitate the bottle). Pulling the pleated Saran through the eye and jamming the other end into a clean cork lets me retrieve the Saran with little trouble after 24 hours.

You can get good stainless steel wire from the nearest welding supply shop. Ask for #316 alloy TIG filler rod. They usually stock 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8 inch diameter. This is a really handy material for bending up almost anything that you don't want to get rusty or contaminate food (or wine). Generally comes in 3 foot lengths. Sold by the pound. 1/8 is hard to bend; you need strong pliers (it will wreck your good needle-nose pliers) and strong wrists, or some kind of bending jig.

[Roy Hersh]

The question is: does corking (and removing the TCA taint) also damage the wine in some other ways?

I can't answer THAT Peter, but can assure you that gassing table wine at least and Port in general, has a DEFINITE negative affect on the aromatics and perception of flavor as well.

[Peter W. Meek]

The question is: does corking (and removing the TCA taint) also damage the wine in some other ways?

I can't answer THAT Peter, but can assure you that gassing table wine at least and Port in general, has a DEFINITE negative affect on the aromatics and perception of flavor as well.

Hmmm. There are two main gasses used for this: nitrogen and argon.

Argon is pretty non-reactive; one of the "noble" gasses with a full complement of electrons in its outer shell. I wouldn't expect it to have much effect once the gas blew off (It could DISPLACE the air and its complement of airborne chemicals that bring aroma to the nose). The wine might out-gas (release) argon for a while after re-opening, extending the time of displacement. It should delay oxidation-based changes (the whole point), and people decant specifically to achieve these effects. I wonder if some aromatics escape into the argon and are then unavailable for later oxidation in the wine or pick up by the nose. Argon won't hurt you (or nitrogen) as long as you don't breathe it exclusively for several minutes and deprive yourself of oxygen for longer than you can hold your breath. Might try sniffing the gas that has been over the wine for a period to see if the volatile aromatics have migrated to the gas.

Nitrogen is cheaper, and often considered neutral because it doesn't oxidize (rust) iron and steel, but it reacts fairly well with a range of other chemicals. I wonder if there has been much comparison of the two gasses for "blanketing" wine.

I have a welding tank of argon here. I might try blanketing some other aromatic foods/liquids to see if this is wine-specific, or a general effect.

[Glenn E.]

I guess I'd have to see (or smell) it to believe it, because as Peter says Argon is an inert noble gas. It is completely non-reactive and so, chemically speaking, cannot alter the wine or Port at all.

Peter mentions that it might absorb into the Port a little bit, but if memory serves Argon is also odorless (unless specifically scented like is done with natural gas) and so even then it shouldn't affect the nose of the Port. It shouldn't absorb into water very much, though. Still, if it does then like Peter said it might affect the transfer of the scent to your nose until it has completely outgassed and blown off.

Nitrogen (or rather Nitrogen gas, N2) is very stable at room temperature, but could in theory react with the Port and cause some sort of change. I doubt it, though, as it was thought to be completely inert for decades after it was discovered.

[Andy Velebil]

Argon is widely used in the wine industry during bottling, as the empty bottles are sparged (if I remember the term correctly) with argon then filled with wine. This displaces the oxygen and helps to prevent premature oxidation during bottling.

[Roy Hersh]

That is correct Andy.

Well folks, try it for yourselves and see what you come up with. I've seen dozens of threads over the years about the VacuVin too. A worthless tool to sucker people out of their money. Those that believe it really works, either need to blow their noses or brush their tongues along with their teeth ... and I am now solely talking about the VacuVin. I have seen some nitrogen systems used in restaurants effectively. However, maybe due to a very sensitive nose, I can definitely notice a "dumbing down" of aromatics especially, but flavors too ... when I have used Private Reserve w/ a can my brother bought for me. Yes, it prevented some oxidation, no question ... but it lost freshness in both crucial categories and I've tried it not only on Ports but Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, CA Cabs, German Rieslings and even Sauternes leftovers. Tossed it and never bought a refill.

[Andy Velebil]

I've used a can "wine preserver" in the past and I stopped several years ago because I kept getting funky odors when i'd uncork the wine for another glass after using the gas. I don't recall what the gas was, I don't think it was argon, but I have never used one since. I'm sure it depends on how sensitive people's noses are, and mine can be quite sensitive to off aromas. So for me I'd rather just toss the bottle in the fridge, or on rare occasions I've frozen left over wine.

[Eric Menchen]

I've seen dozens of threads over the years about the VacuVin too. A worthless tool to sucker people out of their money.

I'm surprised by that statement, as I can understand the physics behind why it should work. It should prevent additional oxidation. But I have to admit that I've never tried a side-by-side comparison of two half full bottles, one vacuumed and one not after a period of time. Perhaps I should. But that's another day, and another thread. And the cost was like 1/10th that of a Durand, so even if I've been suckered, I didn't lose much.

[Kurt Wieneke]

OK, I got suckered into posting on this. I love the VacuVin. . . not the pump, but the little stoppers. I never use the pump as I have never detected a real difference (as Roy alluded to in his P.T. Barnum statement). But I love the stoppers. They work for leftover wine or beer. You can just throw them in the dishwasher and they are as good as new, etc.

[Andy Velebil]

Kurt,

I agree, those little rubber stoppers are quite handy by themselves. The rest, well..........

[Roy Hersh]

Yes, I too love the stoppers and use them often. However, they can be purchased WITHOUT that ridiculous pump which certainly does not create a total vacuum. The stoppers though, 98+ points.

[Eric Menchen]

One doesn't need a total vacuum to reduce oxidation. I would think a half atmosphere of pressure would be better than a full one. What does the vacuum pump get, maybe a tenth? Anyway, to further hijack this thread, here's someone's test of a variety of preservation methods: http://www.hdlenhancement.com/Main/Wine ... onTest.php

[Peter W. Meek]

The conclusion seemed to be that the best way of preserving partial bottles was to store them in smaller bottles with no air over the wine. But how to assure that, given our available smaller bottles, a 'no air' amount is left at the end of a drinking session?

We are all used to sharing out the last wine in a bottle, so perhaps the best way to assure 'no air' over the wine would be to estimate the consumption for the evening and pour the expected remainder into a smaller bottle first leaving no air space. Then drink from the original bottle until it is gone. (This would also minimize the time the wine to be saved is exposed to air.)

I do have one concern: driving a cork into a very (high-neck) filled bottle risks hydraulic breakage of the bottle. As the cork is driven closer to the top surface of the wine, the pressure increases exponentially as the air is compressed under the cork: Halfway from cork-just-sealing to contact would be 2 atmospheres (30 psi); 3/4 of the way it is 60 psi, 7/8 it would be 120 psi; 15/16 of the way 240 psi; etc. Now I wonder how many folks can push this hard, since the area of a wine cork is just over 1/2 square inch and 240 psi would require 120 pounds push to move it. However, there are a LOT of square inches on the inside surface of a wine bottle. I once broke one of the old glass milk bottles from the dairy (back when a horse-drawn wagon delivered the daily milk; ca early '50s) by dropping a leaking CO2 cartridge into it and merely holding my palm over the (approximately 1.5 Sq inch) opening. I doubt if I could make more than 30 psi that way. Yet the milk bottle exploded (not too violently). To be fair, a milk bottle has flat sides that would be much weaker under pressure than the cylindrical sides of a wine bottle. (This may be why wine bottles have punts -- to avoid a weak flat bottom. They could have hemi-spherical bottoms and be just as strong, but then they wouldn't stand upright.)

This suggests that a selection of small decanters with tapered necks might be better, since the cork would seal as it wedges in with very little decrease in volume under the cork between just-sealed and sufficiently-sealed. BTW, American Science & Surplus (google it; you will be astounded at the things they sell) sells a huge variety of cork sizes.

[Kurt Wieneke]

I bet the VacuVin stopper would even fit as a plug in your decanter! Who needs corks when you have the handy-dandy VacuVin stopper?