cork movement in old bottles port WHY

[Symon B]

hi why sometimes do you see corks obtruding outwards in old bottles of port and more rarely inverted slightly thankyou symonb
ps and there may be no sighn of seapage and capsuels fine

[Jim R.]

Symond
Generally popped corks can be associated with high temperatures encountered in its shipping or (God forbid) storage (usually accompanied by leakage but not always) or high altitude, non-climate controlled transit, like driving from california to nevada to go snow skiing. Take care

Jim

[Symon B]

hi yes im thinking of buying a bottle of port that has a slightly raised cork only slightly and no sighns of seapage and good capsuel symonb

[Peter W. Meek]

The only thing I can think of is pressure (or lack of it), combined with a slightly loose cork.

If it has been shipped by air in an unpressurized hold, I could imagine the lack of pressure causing a little outward movement of a dry, slightly shrunken cork.

If it was ever stacked too high, upright in cardboard cases, I can imagine the cardboard crushing on the bottle neck and having enough to push the cork in a bit. Again, it would only happen with a slightly loose cork. I know I have seen wine cases with clear ring-shaped impressions in the cardboard where the cardboard was pressed onto the neck by something heavy resting on it. The center of the ring had to have gone a little way into the neck. This would depress the capsule, however. I have certainly had a few ports where the cork was loose enough to be pushed in a bit as I was trying to insert the screw or the Ah-So blades.

At 20% alcohol, I doubt that there could be any biological activity (fermentation or the like) which would raise pressure in a port bottle.

I suppose heat could raise the pressure in a bottle. The vapor pressure of ethanol (water vp is insignificant) rises to about 1/2 atmosphere at around 60C. Semi-sparkling wines are much more than this, so, again, it would mean a fairly loose cork to get any movement.

[Symon B]

yes iv had ports were the cork can be pushed in with your thumb strange these varyations then you can get a fine no problemb cork from same batch
but for the cork to come out slightly is strange and we have had some good reasoning thus far
could it be that the cork machine just did not put it all the way in ore is it a tell tale sight for heat and i include wines to for same principal we im sure have all had botles of what im talking about so what if the cork is solid wont move no sighns of seapage good lead cap but still protruding slightly interesting problem i wonder if it could also be that the bottle was filled to high and the volume of space was to little to push it fully in symonb

[Andy Velebil]

Typically a slightly "pushed" or raised cork is associated with a heat damaged bottle. I'd be VERY careful about purchasing it as you may be buying a damaged bottle.

[Roy Hersh]

Actually, another reason why you can find a raised cork, is the wine has been shipped during the winter, the wine froze in the bottle and pushed the cork up slightly as the wine expanded during freezing. I've only had this happen once and it was a magnum of 1994 Insignia, a valuable bottle. Fortunately, the retailer was very good about resolving the issue, as there was a mistake on their part for shipping it w/out prior approval, as had been requested at the time of purchase.

[Peter W. Meek]

...shipped during the winter, the wine froze in the bottle and pushed the cork up slightly as the wine expanded during freezing....

This seemed wrong to me, as alcohol has been used as an antifreeze in car radiators in the distant past. However, I looked it up, and 20% abv freezes at -7.5C, which is a fairly normal winter temperature in Northern Temperate climes. They must have used higher concentrations of alcohol for antifreeze, as the freeze point gets respectably low at concentrations near 50%. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_(data_page)

In this case, while it might devalue a bottle of wine, I wouldn't think it would hurt the wine itself.

[Roy Hersh]

Well in the above case with the Insignia magnum which due to the pushed up cork (maybe a 1/2") the bottle leaked all over the inside of the styro shipper and when it arrived it was evident through the cardboard, before the package was even opened. So, actually the bottle condition was affected, regardless of what wikipedia thinks.

[Peter W. Meek]

Roy, I'd say that was a bit more than "pushed up slightly". I was thinking maybe an eighth of an inch and barely bulged the capsule.

That bottle must have really froze hard, and maybe more than once. I hope it was replaceable.

[Roy Hersh]

The retailer told me not to bother sending it back. He replaced it. I told him that I had no choice but to drink it at an offline two days later and it was marvelous, but he still replaced it, which was very generous of the retailer (although he had made a shipping gaffe). I still have a 3 liter of that wine too. Now that is going to be some party!

[Peter W. Meek]

Roy,

A couple of things:

If the wine was marvelous but the bottle condition was affected, I think we have to distinguish between bottle and wine. I agree that having enough wine expelled to stain the shipping carton affects the bottle, and to some extent the wine (there was less of it remaining), but if it still tasted right, then I think the wine (quality) wasn't affected, or not too much.

The bottle was certainly affected; if I saw that bottle in a store with its carton, I would be very leery of buying. I would have been wrong, as the wine was fine, but I wouldn't buy it at anything like normal retail.

And the Wikipedia article was on pure ethanol/water mixes and was just about things like freezing points and vapor pressure at different temperatures/proportions. I'm sure that the sugars, aromatics, and grape solids in wine would affect those numbers, but not by much. It wasn't about the effects of temperature on wine quality at all. If Wikipedia has such an article, I haven't seen it. Wikipedia is pretty good on simple statements of fact; it is much worse on subjective matters like taste.

I have no idea whether freezing would affect the taste of wine once thawed, and also no idea how much heat, and for how long, it takes to damage wine. What kind of wine makes a difference also, as wines like Madeira are deliberately heated as part of the aging process.

[Derek T.]

I don't think that the fact that the wine Roy tasted two days later was marvelous is an issue here. The fact is that he bought a premium wine that he should have hed the option of storing for a considerable number of years. If he had stored that bottle for years it would certainly have been vinegar, so both the wine and the bottle would have been flawed. Roy's bad bottle/good wine experience was simply a matter of timing on his part.

[Roy Hersh]

True that. Like the magnum of Graham's 1966 that my foot knocked over in my cellar as I was doing a reorg in 2003 and the neck broke off. I was able to save a full 750 ml of the 1500. Totally by coincidence, the next night was the very first meeting of the Seattle Tasting Group which I formed with local friends including a little known Eric LeVine who was in the v. early stages of his wine knowledge. The group was thrilled to try a 1966 Vintage Port on our first night together and had big expectations thereafter. But as Derek mentioned, no way I wanted to have to drink that magnum so young and would have been thrilled to let it cellar for another 2-3 decades. Oh well, like the Insignia, sometimes the timing works out, even when you have no choice in the matter.

[Moses Botbol]

Is there higher likelyhood of VA in a bottle that has raised cork?

I too as Andy would assume heat damage, but I have also seen corks that just did not got in flush and were perfect bottles...

[Andy Velebil]

Is there higher likelyhood of VA in a bottle that has raised cork?

I too as Andy would assume heat damage, but I have also seen corks that just did not got in flush and were perfect bottles...

From what I've read and heard the risk of VA damage does go up when the wine is exposed to higher temps. The term I've heard is it "Blooms" in those bottles exposed to higher heat. So yes, since a raised cork is typically an indication of heat damage that would raise the likely hood of VA being present.