Symington vs. TFP

[Moses Botbol]

Which house do you like better; Symington or Taylor Fladgate? Think of their whole product range and brands. Any preference?

I have one, but will post it later on...

[Glenn E.]

That's a tough call, but for me it is pretty clear.

Graham is my favorite producer of these groups, but Taylor and Fonseca are right up there too. After that there's a fairly significant drop off, so overall I'll have to go with TFP. Dow and Warre are both excellent, but neither is really my style so that doesn't help SFE.

[Moses Botbol]

That's a tough call, but for me it is pretty clear.

Graham is my favorite producer of these groups, but Taylor and Fonseca are right up there too. After that there's a fairly significant drop off, so overall I'll have to go with TFP. Dow and Warre are both excellent, but neither is really my style so that doesn't help SFE.

What about both's dry wine offerings?

[Eric Menchen]

I enjoy the TFP offerings to be sure, and I rate Taylor and Fonseca at the top of the field. That said, looking at what I buy, the Symington family gets the nod for "like better." Both my wife and I love many a Smith Woodhouse and Quinta do Vesuvio VP, my wife seems to really like Warres, and the rest of the lineup isn't bad either. For 1960 and 1970, Taylor or Fonseca will shine. But I don't buy a lot of those. In some later vintages I've liked the Symington brands just as much or more than the TFP brands, without regard to price. And with respect to price, I can buy 1994 Quinta do Vesuvio for half the price of 1994 Taylor. Obviously, "like better" includes a QPR factor for me. Maybe when I have some time I'll add up bottles and see where things fall.

<geek alert> For VP, my cellar is 14% TFP, 39% Symington, 47% other. </geek alert>

[Moses Botbol]

I enjoy the TFP offerings to be sure, and I rate Taylor and Fonseca at the top of the field. That said, looking at what I buy, the Symington family gets the nod for "like better."

Totally agree

Looking at what I buy, I am quite loyal to the Symingtons. No question that Taylor, Fonseca, and Croft are top brands, but something about the Suymingtons brands are just closer to the heart.

[Glenn E.]

That's a tough call, but for me it is pretty clear.

Graham is my favorite producer of these groups, but Taylor and Fonseca are right up there too. After that there's a fairly significant drop off, so overall I'll have to go with TFP. Dow and Warre are both excellent, but neither is really my style so that doesn't help SFE.

What about both's dry wine offerings?

I don't drink dry wine (or beer for that matter), so those offerings don't really matter to me.

I did somehow manage to forget that Vesuvio is part of SFE, though. So now I'm not so sure... Graham + Vesuvio would be pretty much tied with Taylor + Fonseca for me, with a very slight nod going to the TFP brands simply because there's no well-aged Vesuvio. They only go back to 1989, which is still pretty young for me. No, the 1863 doesn't count, I can't afford it.

I can't really go by what's in my cellar because that's budget constrained. Among the top 4 I pretty much buy whatever I can find that's at a good price. Just because I own more Vesuvio than Taylor doesn't mean that I actually like it better... it just means I can find it more regularly for less money.

I'd give the nod to Smith Woodhouse over Croft, though, and it's by a significant enough margin for me that it makes up for the previously mentioned nod toward TFP.

I can't even really use tawnies as the tiebreaker, because all of my favorite tawny brands belong to neither group.

[Andy Velebil]

That's a tough call, but for me it is pretty clear.

Graham is my favorite producer of these groups, but Taylor and Fonseca are right up there too. After that there's a fairly significant drop off, so overall I'll have to go with TFP. Dow and Warre are both excellent, but neither is really my style so that doesn't help SFE.

What about both's dry wine offerings?

Moses,
You are aware that TFP doesn't make a dry wine*?

*Exception, they do make one white wine called Dom Prior that is only available for sale at their restaurant in Gaia or at the shop at Quinta do Panascal.

[Moses Botbol]

Moses,
You are aware that TFP doesn't make a dry wine*?

*Exception, they do make one white wine called Dom Prior that is only available for sale at their restaurant in Gaia or at the shop at Quinta do Panascal.

Wow, never really thought about it. Learn something new every day, but back to the question, which one do you prefer?

[David Spriggs]

Well... Taylor and Fonseca are near and dear to my heart, but the rest of the line up leaves me flat. So I will stick my neck out and say Symingtons. I generally like everything in their range of wines - from top to bottom.
-Dave-

[Roy Hersh]

TFP does make a red too, Andy. It is only sold in their restaurant for diners though and is not commercially released. Speaking to David about this the other night while at the Factory House, he said "I never said, 'never' but certainly don't have ANY plans to ever make one." I sense a bit of back tracking, but it would have been impolite. Honestly, I hope someday that David does make Douro wine too because I think he is so talented, that he'd make a killer Douro red!

David, considering there is only Croft, beyond Taylor and Fonseca, I am not quite sure what you are talking about. Loving Taylor & Fonseca, but you don't like Croft? Or are you just saying that Taylor and Fonseca are not broad enough for you to like them as much as the broad lineup of SFE Ports and Douro wines? Please do clarify.

You know looking at both historically and in the current context, it is really hard to choose one over the other but please do keep the discussion going as this is very interesting to read.

[David Spriggs]

David, considering there is only Croft, beyond Taylor and Fonseca, I am not quite sure what you are talking about. Loving Taylor & Fonseca, but you don't like Croft? Or are you just saying that Taylor and Fonseca are not broad enough for you to like them as much as the broad lineup of SFE Ports and Douro wines? Please do clarify.

Well... there used to be Delaforce, so I was lumping that in even though they sold it a couple of years ago. And yes, in general I'm not a fan of Croft. I liked the 2003 Croft VP... but what after that? And I know that many here are fans of the Taylor LBV, but I'm not. And the Tawnies? Not most of them. So really, I'm just left with Taylor and Fonseca VP.

[guilherme]

Both are really first tiers concerning Port and it`s a matter of style and the diferent terroirs for each wine.

However I stil do not understand why TFP hadn`t yet invested in Douros (non fortifieds), while the Symigntons
have a remarkable job, and commitment regarding the development of Douro wines.

Guilherme

[Al B.]

It's a really difficult question to answer. I love Fonseca's wines (apart from 1980 and 1983) and quite enjoy Taylor and older Croft - but Taylor and Fonseca are rather pricey.

I enjoy Graham's, Warre and Dow to the same sort of level as Taylor and older Croft but I love the value for money and quality that Smith Woodhouse, Gould Campbell and Quarles Harris represent and probably buy more of these than the big names. TFP have retained only one of their potential competitors to SW, GC and QH (which I see as having potentially been Morgan and Delaforce) - that being Skeffington which is much more difficult to get hold of in the UK than the SFE labels.

And then, there is Vesuvio, which I am just smitten with.

I suspect that if price was not an issue, I would probably buy lots more Fonseca than I do but overall, I think I would choose SFE over TFP because of those top value for money marques.

After writing this, I took a look at the contents of my cellar. Fonseca (9%), Taylor (4%), Morgan (3%), Vargellas (2%) and Croft (6%) make up 24% of my port. SFE makes up 45% as Dow (5%), Gould Campbell (2%), Grahams (4%), Smith Woodhouse (7%), Vesuvio (21%) and Warre (6%). That seems to back up my first impression.

Alex

[Raul Valle]

I don't want to sound buyest but I think that when comparing, for me, the 2 biggest groups in the Port trade, both of them with amazing wines, I prefer the Symington's!
I think that robotic treading tanks that been involved in the winemaking since 1998 are now showing their utility and their efficiency and I think that the Symington's wines in the past 5-8 years have sistematically improved in quality.
Take the example of the recently declared 07 VP's or even the Graham's LBV 2005 port, which for an every day wine has an amazing concentration and freshness that I'm used to see in unfiltered LBV!
On the other edge of the group you have 2 magical vineyard: Quinta do Vesuvio, completely traditional and Srª da Ribeira which is mix of tradition with modern tecnology, that make amazing vintages almost every year!
I know that this will sound buyest, but I had the chance to compare some wines from Vargellas and Terra Feita, and the SFE's are more consistent every year!
I'll give you a suggestion, compare the Vesuvio 07 (declared VP) with the Vesuvio 08 and tell me what you think!

Cheers,

Raul

[Derek T.]

Raul,

I'm not sure we can count your vote in this one my friend

Hope to see you again soon!

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

Raul,

I'm not sure we can count your vote in this one my friend

Hope to see you again soon!

Derek

No kidding

For those that don't know, Raul works for the Symington's at the Graham's Lodge.

Raul, see you in a few months

[David Spriggs]

I'll give you a suggestion, compare the Vesuvio 07 (declared VP) with the Vesuvio 08 and tell me what you think!

Great idea! Andy and I will expect that tasting when we see you in October!