The Benefits of Treading

[Derek T.]

I thought of this question whilst posting a lighthearted response on another thread. This is intended to be a serious question for all our budding Chemists out their.

Having spent some time in a Lagar myself, and also having a Beautician for a sister and a partner who owns almost every cosmetic product ever made, it strikes me that the process of treading is probably an excellent method of exfoliation. This means that at the end of the treading process each lagar will contain traceable quantities of dead human skin, mostly from the soles of the feet and from between the toes, both of which are areas which shed more skin than most other parts of the body.

My question is, would it be possible to detect human DNA in foot trodden wine?

Derek

PS: appologies to those of you who have just opened an expensive bottle of "real" VP just before reading this thread :?

[Alan C.]

If the circumstances are that a limited number of people tread grapes in their bare feet, and the forensic specialists got to the resulting juice, prior to any further procedures....Definately.

To give you an example, a burglar was recently caught by placing his ear against a window to 'listen' if someone may be in the house he then broke into. Not only did they get his earprint, they lifted his DNA.

The thing that would kill DNA is heat/alcohol. So if the fermentation process included either, which it does. The resulting finished product is DNA free.

But I'm not sure what you achieve with this information? :? :)

Alan

[Derek T.]

I firmly believe that there is no such thing as useless information so, although this thread might not seem important to you now, it may become usefull in future.

Pity about the heat and alchohol thing, kind of ruins the idea at the start!

Derek

[Alan C.]

It may then, interest you to know that when Criminals have been in contact with say, their murder victim, they wash themselves in petrol for the same reason. It De-fronsics themselves. I'm waiting patiently for the dope that does it whilst smoking a cigarette! I'm sure its only a matter of time.

[Derek T.]

I see my question about whether or not you can detect human DNA in foot trodden port has been thrown out of the Fourm area described as "This forum is for discussing all things Port"

I'm not sure on what basis my question didn't qualify?

Derek

[Eric Ifune]

My guess is that the enviornment of the grape juice, fermentation, and fortification would destroy any human DNA. Most likely any residual DNA would be from the yeasts.

[Derek T.]

OK - I accept that DNA is not going to be traceable - bt is there any other substance that could be detected that would prove that foot trodden port is "part human"?

Derek

[Alan C.]

If your unlucky....Yes!

And it returns to your humourous answer of 'Toenails'. Anything, like that, that is solid, human hair,etc, but it would have to be microscopic enough to get past the filtering process, but big enough to have some substance to it. They are getting better at recovering DNA all the time. And with solid items, like bones, you can recover it from hundreds of thousands of years ago. Hence the thought of adding Woolly Mammoth DNA to the modern Elephant and slowly trying to clone a new Mammoth over generations of reintroductions.
So unlikely, but possible. Better examine that sediment a little closer. Will that make you sleep easier?

[Derek T.]

I can't see any of the items you mention making it through a filter, but then again VP isn't filtered.

I repeat, this is a serious question - is VP part human?

Derek

[Alan C.]

This is where you 'Trip to the Duoro' guys have me over a barrel. When they say VP isn't filtered, surely there is a process that takes the twigs and crap out of it? I always thought, it must be sieved or something, leaving small bits in it, but nowhere near as 'filtered' as the lesser ports.

Go on...Education time?

[Derek T.]

Alan,

The pipes (not Pipes) coming out of the Lagar have filters that would stop a whole garden pea, but nothing smaller. I haven't seen it happen but I would imagine that the build-up of grape solids around the filter would form a natural, more effective filter than the stainless steel grill.

When the juice is drawn from casks or pipes it is taken from a tap which is above the level of the crap that lies in the bottom (I think this is called racking) so no filter is necessary.

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

Derek, that Port haze has come back to you....During filtering, they scrape the large chunks off to the side so the metal filter keeps doing what its supposed too.

[Alan C.]

So back in Quincy's Lab, the Chinese bloke has sliced open a pice of Toe nail, slightly smaller thsan a pea. He couldn't test the outside, because the Alcohol had burned off the DNA from the surface.
But now, yes, there it is...Quincy checks...Yes Human DNA! from the sediment of a 70year old Vintage Port! So we now know the Murderer's, Oh sorry, I meant the Grape Treader's, identity.
We now cut back to Quincy's boat, where a much relieved Scottish Bloke called Derek, can finally get a good nights sleep!
Cue that crap music, roll the credits, thats a Wrap!

[Eric Ifune]

Quincy! I forgot about him.
Still, to get a DNA match, you would have to have a record of the DNA of all the different treaders. Somehow, I don't think they have DNA records 70 years old!

[Derek T.]

Ah, but if you took DNA from current treaders you would be able to validate their claims of "my Grandfather had his feet in the Nacional 31"

[Andy Velebil]

I too forgot about Quincy...I barily remember this show as a kid.

[Andy Velebil]

Ah, but if you took DNA from current treaders you would be able to validate their claims of "my Grandfather had his feet in the Nacional 31"

That would be my great-great grandfather

[Jay Powers]

When the juice is drawn from casks or pipes it is taken from a tap which is above the level of the crap that lies in the bottom (I think this is called racking) so no filter is necessary.

Derek

I think that you got it there Derek. Not many solids likely to get into the bottle, and anything else destroyed by the combination of ethanol and acidity (DNA and RNA are fairly acid labile). So you are safe

Jay

[Derek T.]

Thanks, Jay - I knew I could rely on you for a sensible and scientifically accurate answer

Derek

[Andrew N.]

Very interesting thought this,if the dna was not killed off by the heat ,would the alcohol preserve any dna that was left ?and at what tempature would the dna be destroyed ? .on a lighter note ,i opened a bottle of serafim cabral 1871 on new years eve 2000 which was labeled as a private reserve for hambeltons.preparing to open the bottle that was covered with a rather impresive red wax seal,i noticed a finger print at the bottom of the wax (which was imbeded in the wax)someone at bottling time had crimped the dribbling wax before it reached the lower neck of the bottle which made me wonder who had done this so many years ago ,and what where they thinking at the time ?.That person maybe long gone ,but that person was brought back to life due to their fingerprint surviving 129 years on the bottle,i wonder who had not thought of him/her over that time,and i was thinking about them on hogmany 2000.spooky stuff