SQVPs, What Are Your Favs?

[Glenn E.]

Fonseca Guimaraens is most definitely not an SQVP !!

Neither is Graham's Malvedos.

Now Graham's Quinta dos Malvedos on the other hand... that's an SQVP.

So, when is an SQVP not a "real" SQVP?

I think you've covered the actual rules well enough, but to me there is a difference in perception between something like Quinta do Noval or Quinta do Vesuvio, which only make SQVPs and do it as often as possible, and something like Taylor's Quinta de Vargellas or Graham's Quinta dos Malvedos which are normally only produced in non-declared years.

In that sense, Noval and Vesuvio aren't "real" SQVPs because they're a primary product. "Real" SQVPs are, to me, normally secondary products.

Note: Secondary, not necessarily second tier. As we've all seen, SQVPs can often beat VPs from fully declared years.

[Moses Botbol]

I think you've covered the actual rules well enough, but to me there is a difference in perception between something like Quinta do Noval or Quinta do Vesuvio, which only make SQVPs and do it as often as possible, and something like Taylor's Quinta de Vargellas or Graham's Quinta dos Malvedos which are normally only produced in non-declared years.

In that sense, Noval and Vesuvio aren't "real" SQVPs because they're a primary product. "Real" SQVPs are, to me, normally secondary products.

Would have to agree with the above. Vesuvio and Noval are not "SQVP's" in manner intended for this thread.

[Andy Velebil]

Fonseca Guimaraens is most definitely not an SQVP !!

If you check out the thread where we had David Guimaraens as a guest on this site you will find that he says FG is made in the same way as the wines released as "Fonseca" in classic years.

As for this...

While similar to Ronald, IMO there are really two distinct categories. Or should I say sub-categories?

SQVP's that truly are from a single Quinta (only produced in non-classicly declared years) and "SQVP's" which are really a blend released in non-classically declared years. One can rightly argue the later isn't a true "SQVP", but they seem to have been generally accepted as one.

An SQVP is an SQVP whether it is the producer's primary or secondary brand. The definition of an SQVP is that it is produced using the grapes of one quinta. Quinta do Vesuvio, Quinta do Noval, Quinta dos Malvedos, Quinta do Anythingyoulike are all SQVPs, all of which are a blend of wines that are made from grapes grown on one quinta. There really is no difference.

Something that I find interesting in a debate about SQVPs is that the very existence of Quinta do Noval and its long history of making top class VP and the emergence of Quinta do Vesuvio dispel the myth that you need grapes from multiple locations to make the best VP. It simply isn't true Yes, it helps if you can access the best grapes from many places to blend together, but it doesn't have to be that way to end up with a fabulous wine. No doubt the argument will emerge that Vesuvio can only do this because of its size, but that argument falls over when you consider Noval, which is much smaller than Vesuvio.

To add fuel to the fire, in recent years Noval have been producing Noval Silval VP, which is a blend from Quinta do Noval and other sources, as their secondary brand. The is entirely the reverse of what producers such as Graham, Dow, and Taylor do. Then there is Croft, which in recent years has produced all (or the vast majority) of its vintage wines entirely from the grapes grown on Quinta da Roeda. In classic years they brand it "Croft" and in others years "Quinta da Roeda", but the wines are all from the same place.

So, when is an SQVP not a "real" SQVP?

Exactly the point I was trying to make. There has been a blurring of the lines as to what is really considered by most to be a Single Quinta VP. Malvedos was considered by almost all as a SQVP even though it wasn't "officially" until the 1996 vintage. And your example of Croft and Roeda also highlights this. It's a SQVP when they want it to be and not when they don't.

Some people say Noval Nacional is a Single vineyard Single Quinta. Yet that is not correct either as Nacional is at least two distinctly different plots of vines. One above and one below the main Quinta road, both having different exposures. So how can it be a "Single vineyard"? And what the heck to we call Vesuvio's Capela???

I'm not sure what the answer is here, but lets all hope the IVDP doesn't step in and try to clarify or it will be even more confusing

[Eric Menchen]

Now Graham's Quinta dos Malvedos on the other hand... that's an SQVP.

Or is it s MQVP?

[Al B.]

Offley ports are also single quinta in the same way as Croft's ports. Offley ports are (or at least were until bought by Sogrape) produced solely from grapes grown on Boa Vista.

[Derek T.]

Is there an IVDP definition of an SQVP? (I am hoping not)

[Derek T.]

Fonseca Guimaraens is most definitely not an SQVP !!

Neither is Graham's Malvedos.

Now Graham's Quinta dos Malvedos on the other hand... that's an SQVP.

You got me on that one

[Eric Menchen]

Is there an IVDP definition of an SQVP? (I am hoping not)

I don't think so. I couldn't find "quinta" in the first few IVDP regulations I checked. I think use of the word is covered in broader (EU, international) regulations.

[Daniel R.]

Is there an IVDP definition of an SQVP? (I am hoping not)

I don't think so. I couldn't find "quinta" in the first few IVDP regulations I checked. I think use of the word is covered in broader (EU, international) regulations.

No, the special category is "Vintage". Mentioning it comes from a single property is optional information that may be placed on the label. The language of the regulation is:

Referência ao estatuto da entidade nos termos da legislação em vigor, quando o vinho em questão for proveniente exclusivamente de uvas colhidas de videiras que fazem parte da exploração vitícola e se a vinificação tiver sido efectuada nessa exploração ou o detentor da exploração vitícola assuma inequivocamente a direcção efectiva e a responsabilidade exclusiva pela vinificação, pelo vinho produzido e pelo respectivo engarrafamento

[Andy Velebil]

No, the special category is "Vintage". Mentioning it comes from a single property is optional information that may be placed on the label. The language of the regulation is:

Referência ao estatuto da entidade nos termos da legislação em vigor, quando o vinho em questão for proveniente exclusivamente de uvas colhidas de videiras que fazem parte da exploração vitícola e se a vinificação tiver sido efectuada nessa exploração ou o detentor da exploração vitícola assuma inequivocamente a direcção efectiva e a responsabilidade exclusiva pela vinificação, pelo vinho produzido e pelo respectivo engarrafamento

Here is Google's translation

Reference to the status of the entity under the law in force when the wine in question is derived exclusively from grapes harvested from vines that are part of the vineyard and the winemaking has been made that holding or keeper of the vineyard takes unequivocally direction effective and exclusive responsibility for winemaking, the wine produced and bottled by its

[Eric Menchen]

I agree that as far as the IVDP is concerned, SQVP is VP. I also stand by my original assertion that the IVDP doesn't define or regulate the term "quinta" as far as I could tell. The above regulation still didn't mention "quinta" per se. If you go to the International Organisation of Wine and Vine, you can find the International Standard for Labelling Wines, which states:

3.1.3. Name of the viticultural holding
The name of the viticultural holding (château, quinta, finca, tenuta, Weingut, manor, estate etc):
- the wine must come solely from the said holding: grapes harvested and vinified in the holding as such designated;
- the description of the viticultural holding must correspond to the customs of the country and must not create confusion in the mind of the consumer;
- the wine must be entitled to a recognised geographic indication or recognised appellation of origin, and be mentioned as such.

I think there are other similar multi-national standards.

[Derek T.]

So the evidence points to the fact that the definition, even if only implied, is that an SQVP is a wine produced from the grapes grown on a single quinta. Nothing seems to distinguish between SQVP that is a primary versus a secondary brand, so that distinction is entirely of the consumer's making. That being the case, most here seem to be answering the question "Secondary brand, what is your favs?", rather than the question posed in the title of the thread.

[Glenn E.]

So the evidence points to the fact that the definition, even if only implied, is that an SQVP is a wine produced from the grapes grown on a single quinta. Nothing seems to distinguish between SQVP that is a primary versus a secondary brand, so that distinction is entirely of the consumer's making. That being the case, most here seem to be answering the question "Secondary brand, what is your favs?", rather than the question posed in the title of the thread.

I think you've covered the actual rules well enough, but to me there is a difference in perception between something like Quinta do Noval or Quinta do Vesuvio, which only make SQVPs and do it as often as possible, and something like Taylor's Quinta de Vargellas or Graham's Quinta dos Malvedos which are normally only produced in non-declared years.

In that sense, Noval and Vesuvio aren't "real" SQVPs because they're a primary product. "Real" SQVPs are, to me, normally secondary products.

Isn't that what I said?

My answer to the original question did contain both, because despite my quoted answer here for some reason I do generally still think of Vesuvio as an SQVP yet Noval as a VP. Despite the fact that both are technically SQVPs according to the rules.

Some people say Noval Nacional is a Single vineyard Single Quinta. Yet that is not correct either as Nacional is at least two distinctly different plots of vines. One above and one below the main Quinta road, both having different exposures. So how can it be a "Single vineyard"?

Perhaps I have these mixed up, but to me Quinta > vineyard > plot. So it is perfectly acceptable to refer to Nacional as a "single vineyard" product even though there are two distinct plots in the vineyard because, well, vineyards can be made up of multiple plots in the same way that Quintas can be made up of multiple vineyards.

That said, having been to Quinta do Noval I find it a bit amusing that the two Nacional "plots" are somehow distinct from the surrounding plots that are adjacent to them.

[Andy Velebil]

That said, having been to Quinta do Noval I find it a bit amusing that the two Nacional "plots" are somehow distinct from the surrounding plots that are adjacent to them.

Now you're really

I often have wondered how the grape vines a few feet away are "that" different as well. I haven't seen anything magically different a few feet away. Just like the lore that all the vines are from the original replant. When in fact they regularly die and are replanted. Honestly I could care less so long as the product quality remains high.

[Bradley Bogdan]

Never having been to Noval, I can't comment on the Nacional plots, but I can comment that a few feet can make a huge difference in some vineyards.

Difference in soil/underlying geology can greatly affect the vine

Air drainage and sun exposure can be vastly different, playing into ripening and vine damage/safety

Differences in the way the plots have been maintained over years and years can change the vines to be very different.

When I still worked at a winery, we were located in a very hilly, marginal, glacier carved region with all of those examples making themselves manifest over the course of feet. Now I'm not going to say that the majority of differences in taste of plots aren't more random chance than they are terroir imposed at many wineries, because I suspect they're not, but in many cases it does really matter, even if the naked eye can't sometimes see why.

[Ronald Wortel]

That said, having been to Quinta do Noval I find it a bit amusing that the two Nacional "plots" are somehow distinct from the surrounding plots that are adjacent to them.

Now you're really

I often have wondered how the grape vines a few feet away are "that" different as well. I haven't seen anything magically different a few feet away. Just like the lore that all the vines are from the original replant. When in fact they regularly die and are replanted. Honestly I could care less so long as the product quality remains high.

I've never been to Noval, nor tasted the NN, so can't comment on that. But in general it is very well possible that vineyard plots right next to eachother have very different characteristics. I know of examples in the Mosel (Graacher Himmelreich / Graacher Domprobst) where small differences, such as the underground waterflow make a distinct difference in the character of the wine.

[Derek T.]

That said, having been to Quinta do Noval I find it a bit amusing that the two Nacional "plots" are somehow distinct from the surrounding plots that are adjacent to them.

Now you're really

I often have wondered how the grape vines a few feet away are "that" different as well. I haven't seen anything magically different a few feet away. Just like the lore that all the vines are from the original replant. When in fact they regularly die and are replanted. Honestly I could care less so long as the product quality remains high.

That isn't really the point about the Nacional plots. The difference is that the Nacional plots have ungrafted vines and the adjacent plots don't. Whether or not the adjacent plots could sustain ungrafted wines is not known, so we don't know whether or not they would produce the same quality of vines. What I have seen on my numerous visits to Quinta do Noval is that the Nacional vines are stressed beyond the point of any others that I have seen anywhere else on the Quinta or any other place in the Douro. At times it looks like a neglected vineyard full of dying vines. Perhaps that is the reason why it is capable of producing such stellar wines, but in such small quantities? Perhaps the grafted/ungrafted difference is not the issue.

[Rob C.]

If going on true "single quinta" basis, i'm going to throw my hat in the ring for Vesuvio on a QPR basis. For current drinking i particularly like the 98, but the 96 is also rather good (if a bit less open and expressive than the 98 right now and more obviously "too young") and can be found for a little over £20...

Noval would be my price-blind pick, but I've been impressed by Niepoort Bioma (albeit they make a point of calling this a single vineyard port rather than single quinta in the spec sheet).

If going on a "second brand" basis, some of the recent vintage Dow Senhora da Ribeiras that i have had are outstanding. Preferable (as young ports) to my palate than the Bomfims (but i have no clue about ageing potential).

[Moses Botbol]

If going on a "second brand" basis, some of the recent vintage Dow Senhora da Ribeiras that i have had are outstanding. Preferable (as young ports) to my palate than the Bomfims (but i have no clue about ageing potential).

If assuming SQVP means a "2nd label" in "off vintages", Dow is the first name I think of. Taylor Vargellas a close 2nd.