Gasoline (Petrol) prices

[Derek T.]

Having just spent a week driving around in the US I have a suggestion for how we can stop Global Warming in int's tracks (not that I'm admitting it exists ).

We hired a Chrysler 300 for our trip. A large car, but by no means the largest on the road out there. I covered about 500 miles over the course of the week (including 2 x 170 mile trips on the Interstate at steady speeds) and used 2.5 tanks for fuel - 15 gallons in each tank = 37.5 gallons = 13.33mpg

At home I get 480 miles out of 1 x 10 gallon tank = 48mpg

You guys need to do something about those gas guzzling monsters. They are very bad things

[Andy Velebil]

Wlecome to the world of american car companies, which is why I buy an import car. I have no sympathy for the American car companies, they have repeatedly failed to think more than 1 day in advance, still use the same 15 year old parts and frames in their cars, produce a very poor quality product, and one that gets horrible gas mileage to boot. They deserve to fail for their poor management and lack of thinking outside the box.

[Moses Botbol]

We hired a Chrysler 300 for our trip. A large car, but by no means the largest on the road out there.

13.33mpg

You guys need to do something about those gas guzzling monsters. They are very bad things

Wow... That is bad mileage. My Jag has a V8 and gets around 27 mpg on the highway. I have little sympathy for those who buy SUV's and like & complain about how expensive it is to keep 'em running.

[Glenn E.]

There are very few high-mileage cars (40+ mpg) available in the US, and most of those are hybrids which have their own environmental problems.

Part of the issue is that our diesel regulations are stricter than the ones in the EU, so all of those zippy little diesels that you can get in Europe aren't available here. IIRC our regulations are roughly on par with Euro 6 which doesn't go into effect until 2011. Due to a quirk in the timing of the laws, it would theoretically be possible to sell Euro 6 diesels in the US for exactly 1 year before our standards get even tighter in 2012. From what I've been reading, though, no companies plan to exploit that small window of opportunity. Right now the only new diesels that can be sold in the US use urea injection systems to meet our 2007 standards (i.e. Mercedes' BlueTec) but those systems are allegedly too large and expensive to be installed in small cars.

(Side note - Volkswagon saw the coming problem and dramatically over-manufactured it's 2006 diesels so that it would have diesels it could sell in the US into 2007 while they developed their own urea injection system for 2008.)

Really, though, the US problem is that our cars are HUGE, in no small part because of our ridiculously overprotective crash safety standards. Europeans visiting the US often don't even notice it because all of the cars here are big, but Americans visiting Europe can easily see the difference. My wife has an Audi TT... over here it's a really small car. But when we were traveling in Europe last year, we saw a few of them and they looked like big, muscular sports cars compared to the typical European car on the road. It was a very strange paradigm shift for us.

[Derek T.]

Glenn,

Interesting to read about the regulatory impact in all of this but I have to say there is absolutely no excuse for a car like the Chrysler 300 to have such a low mpg. The car is not significantly bigger than a BMW 5 Series or a Mercedees E Class and these both have consumption which is less than half of that of the 300.

I worked out yesterday that the owner of a 300 in the US will be paying more for fuel every week than I am paying in the UK despite the fact that we are paying the same price for a litre that you guys pay for a gallon - It is time for the US manufacturers to wake up and smell the coffee.

Derek

[Glenn E.]

IIRC the Chrysler 300 is classified (in the US) as a full size car, while the BMW 5-series is classified as a mid-size car. Our classifications are weird, though, because they only count interior volume and not the actual size/weight of the vehicle, so it's entirely possible that you are correct and the vehicles are approximately the same size.

The 300 probably had a big V8 Hemi in it, though, because those are very popular here in the US. It was probably a 6-liter monstrosity that produced far more power than you'd even need in a car like that.

Compared to a BMW with a far more reasonable 3-liter, yeah it's going to be bad.

Even so... your 13.3 mpg seems awfully low. I'm able to get 15-17 mpg in my Tahoe without too much effort, so I find it very surprising that the 300 is that bad. Was the car brand new, possibly? Maybe the engine wasn't broken in yet... just hypothesizing.

[Derek T.]

Glenn,

It had a 3.5 litre V8 engine. It may not have helped that most of the miles were covered with 4 people in the car and 6 suitcases in the trunk

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

Heading down a different path on the PETROL topic.

Considering gasoline was up to $4.40 at its peak two months ago and at that price heading into the summer time which is typically when the peak of driving takes place in the USA ... is anyone amazed by the fact that mid-summer the gasoline prices throughout the USA are suddenly plummeting?

Afterall, the gas prices are supposedly based strictly on supply vs. demand which creates market pricing for just about any commodity, but always has been the driving force of Petrol pricing in the USA ... say the pundits.

So how could prices have fallen $.35/gallon over the past 3 weeks? A shocking development!?!?!?!

Conspiracy theorists, or at least people who believe the current US federal government has a lot more influence on oil market pricing (considering the Pres. and VP have always had DEEP ties to the oil industry and still do, especially refinery owners) than the laissez-faire believers do ... smell a rat. All of a sudden the prices are dropping during peak driving season and is it any coincidence that the #1 issue in the upcoming Presidential and house/senate seat elections (the economy ) which are now less than 3 months away ... will have a major reaction to the view of the overall economy. Call me a skeptic, but this is not the first time we've seen this game. Anyone paying attention will remember the EXACT same dynamic in 2004, when prices really went up, up, up, and then quickly fell in Sept. and Oct. only to immediately go back up when the current administration was voted back in ... by my fellow Americans. :devil: :twisted:

[Andy Velebil]

There is plenty of oil in the market and the refineries can't process it fast enough. Its the speculators that have been driving up per barrel prices. It has a lot to do with the Arab's no longer wanting the US occupying their country. Drive up the price, make the Republicans look bad, they go by by from office, and a Dem comes in that more than likely will speed up the exidous from Iraq. Thats a really simple version of what I was told last year by a good friend that has been an oil industry executive for almost 30 years.

[Derek T.]

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that fuel prices are "fixed" by those who have an interest in doing so. If they see an opportunity to ramp them up they will. If they need them to come down for political reasons they will do that too.

If anyone has been watching the news over the past couple of days they will have seen that a significant war is developing in Georgia which threatens an oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea which feeds demand in Europe and North America. One would think that if the crap we have been told recently about supply and demand were true fuel prices would be heading through the roof right now. But they continue to fall. Go figure.

[Roy Hersh]

The Caspian Sea? Jeez, time to speculate on Beluga Caviar futures!

Andy, your reasoning or the person that told you this nonsense has one flaw that it is about as big as the Douro region itself.

The Dems are the ones that have done ALL the crying to stop the speculators of oil and have the legistlators do something about that practice. But if you look at the FACTS, it has been the Reps that have been the ones to say "no way ... we don't need any stinkin' regulations ... smaller government and all." Besides, the ones doing the speculating are often times the folks in Houston who are benefiting big time. Of course it is really money coming from all the wealthy people who feel it is a smart financial move which is investors from both blue and red. But, the opposition to stopping the speculators is unquestionably coming from Reps!

That is not opinion.

[Andy Velebil]

I don't think it is nonsense. He knows more than you and I put together about the oil industry and how it works, considering he is also the president of the petrolium engineer society...a position elected to by his peers. So I don't think he got there without knowing a thing or two. Obviously what I gave you was a very short and simple reader's digest version of a long conversation where he explained how things work behind the scenes and what was really going on.


Of course the Reps dont want regulations, that will give them problems for years down the road. but that is not what is the force behind what is going on now. Thats not to say they jumped on the band wagon to make money, but it wasn't the Reps that started this price war. It was the Arab's that wanted to make Bush look bad and ensure that a Rep doesn't get re-elected. Remember, McCain is ex-military and more than likely would continue what Bush is doing, and that is exactly what the Arab's don't want. It really comes down to world politics, other countries have a serious vested interest in who gets elected here in the states.

[Derek T.]

other countries have a serious vested interest in who gets elected here in the states.

Absolutely. Can we have another funny one please? GWB has provided endless entertainment for 8 years. RR was also hilarious as was Bill "The Cigar" Clinton with his novel ideas on staff development

Something that you guys may find surprising is that here in the UK we can't really detect much of a difference between the Reps and the Dems. Our three main parties (from Left to Right), Labour, Liberal and Conservative cover a broad spectrum between Socialist and what you would call Republican values. The spectrum extends to the laft and right if you include Communism and Facism but let's not go there. Both of your parties have policies that we would consider to be to the Right of that spectrum, one just being further right than the other. The other thing that is completely invisible to us is what sits behind the personality of the leader. It seems to be more of a popularity contest than an election of which party's policies you want to rule your life (and the lives of anyone who dares to threaten your oil supply :devil: )

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

It seems to be more of a popularity contest than an election of which party's policies you want to rule your life

I hope that is not true for the majority. I know that is NOT the case in our household, where core values across the board, rule the voting preferences. Making fun of our top politician(s) is easy. But in the UK, Ms. Maggie, Blair, Brown and others ... it wouldn't be hard to turn any of them into jokes either! Then again, the same could probably be said for just about any world leader.

But back to oil talk:

Andy,

In my belief system, I am 100% for curtailing the speculation in oil futures. I truly believe it hurts the process, while some well funded "players" get rich riding the wave they've helped to create and the rest of the country suffers. Sure, China and India are now driving prices higher with their ever increasing demand. But the US must take its share of the blame!

It is not a Rep vs Dem issue when it comes to seeking out sound alternatives. Bush in his wisdom, thinks the answer lies in expanding drilling in "sensitive" areas. His opposition believes the environmental impact is not worth the gain in new found oil. This is an argument that will continue for decades to come. But it doesn't take your oil industry friend's brain to figure out that we need to have other coals in the fire, hopefully some renewable resource. Whether that be coal, wind, sun or something yet to be invented ... we should at least have a sound energy policy that is open to seeking answers for the sake of our children and theirs. Right now, this administration (I won't categorize it as a Republican issue) as it is clearly a major Bush agenda ... is against finding alternatives to oil consumption. It is no secret that that is the case and more obvious that it will take someone with less vested interests in the oil industries success, to be a bit more open minded to the future beyond oil. We empower the Middle East with our policies. Saudi Arabia remains a very close friend of America (in our minds) and the Bush family too. Heck, GWB allowed the Bin Laden family to fly out of the U.S.A. on 9-11 while every other single commercial/private (non-military) jet was grounded. There has never been an answer to the questions that surrounded why that was permitted ... at the highest levels of our gov't. But that is just a tangential pet peeve.

As to the next generation, our gasoline "pigs" from trucks to SUVs to oil eating 8 cylinder powered cars, there must be something done in Detroit. Whether that must be "regulated" or done by consumer demand ... it probably won't ever happen if gas goes back to "two fitty" a gallon. Seriously, there would be no impetus to do so. Have gas staying over $4 a gallon, gets the entire populace talking about alternatives, planning out their daily driving habits, considering the next President with regards to a thought provoking energy policy and local leaders (Senators and members of the House of Representatives) who are supposed to care about what we think too. Sadly there are so many blind sheep ... that the answers remain few and obstacles (like oil futures speculation) is allowed to continue unabated.

I know that this year there is a very significant drop in oil consumption in this country and that has ONLY happened when the prices got to a pretty painful point. I am certain, that behind closed doors, the rest of the world is thrilled that this is happening here in America. They see our gas guzzling cars and especially SUV and Hummer lifestyles, as being out of control and without regard for the oil prices so dearly paid for, by the majority of the rest of the world. We have been oil consuming "pigs" and not had to pay for the luxury of our ways, while Smart Cars, minis and motorcycles and scooters have been purchased to manage day-to-day travel. Until recently, people here never gave a 2nd thought to making 2-3 trips to pick up groceries etc. at different stores and the vast majority still don't plan their driving chores in order to save gas (some now do, but again, only because of escalating prices in 2007-2008).

[Derek T.]

It seems to be more of a popularity contest than an election of which party's policies you want to rule your life

I hope that is not true for the majority. I know that is NOT the case in our household, where core values across the board, rules the voting preference. Making fun of our top politician(s) is easy. But in the UK, Ms. Maggie, Blair, Brown and others ... it wouldn't be hard to turn any of them into jokes either! Then again, the same could probably be said for just about any world leader.

Roy,

I wasn't suggesting it was true, just explaining the perception here that is caused by the media coverage we recieve. We only get the sound bites and hype surrounding the personality of the Presidential candidates. We get nothing about US party politics.

I agree that it is easy to poke fun at political leaders as they are all human and make mistakes. But you must surely agree that GWB is the most riduculous excuse for a human being every to have been given the responsibility of running a democracy. I have not yet seen a positive side to him and cannot understand how he ever managed to get himself elected once never mind twice.

[Andy Velebil]

I totally agree that we need to cut out our gas guzzlers and that we Americans are the poster child for waste.

But it doesn't take your oil industry friend's brain to figure out that we need to have other coals in the fire, hopefully some renewable resource.

Totally agree, but that was not the question at hand a few posts ago

[Roy Hersh]

But you must surely agree that GWB is the most riduculous excuse for a human being every to have been given the responsibility of running a democracy. I have not yet seen a positive side to him and cannot understand how he ever managed to get himself elected once never mind twice.

Sadly, there are too many Americans to this day in time, that not only agree that Bush is doing a good job, but that he is a GREAT President.

I love America! I love the potential we have here. I have always been proud that we have been a world leader in helping mankind, most often with clean intentions ... as our involvement in WW1 and the European theater in WW2 exhibited, (even going as far as helping the Germany and Japan rebuild afterwards).

But from the abuse of power in the Middle East, to authorizing and approving of torturing POWs (and then denying that fact, by putting up a few low level scapegoats) to unscrupulous illegal spying on the citizens of the USA in the name of "anti-terrorism" (only a % of which is true) to the hate mongering of people in this country who do not pray the same way or choose to have differences of opinion, to lying to Congress and the American public for the need to stop terrorist factions in Iraq and spending billions that we must borrow at great cost to the next few Administrations, to continuing a war that CAN NOT be won (in Iraq) while ignoring the bigger threat (Iran) and having no exit strategy .... YES, our fearless leader will have the ugliest legacy of any former President this country has ever known (and we've had other bad ones!).

The day after the election in 2004, after Dorene and I stayed up to 3 a.m. PST when the back and forth declaration of winners was finally called a stalemate, until the next day when Ohio could be fully reported in all precincts ... when we found out that Kerry had found a way to self destruct in what should have been an easy win over a buffoon, and again America elected this guy, my wife cried and begged me in her grief to move to Canada. Of course she was despondent and not serious (afterall ... how the heck could I afford Port up there?) but we sat quietly in sadness together knowing that things would get much worse before they could get better in 2009 ... more than 4 years away. I am sure that many reading this will think it is totally inappropriate to write these things here on a Port board ... but that it why it is called "OTHER DISCUSSIONS." I am not one to be shy about speaking my mind.

I am not anti-Republican. I will probably vote for the oppostion leader to our own Governor (Dem.) in this state and that person is a Republican. I have voted for others too. However, there are core values that the other party represents that are near and dear to me. These are issues that are already part of our Constitution ... such as "division of Church and State" which is ignored by the current government. Many other issues as well.

But for now, I will step off and get back to the oil topic at hand. One last parting shot though: NEVER BELIEVE THAT GWB IS STUPID!!! He had enough common sense to install the greatest life insurance policy of any President (since the "other" Bush had a Quayle in office) and that came in the form of Dick "the hunter" Cheney. An absolutely stroke of genius on Bush's part ... and possibly the only time it was ever evidenced in his 8 years as our "leader."

[Andy Velebil]

Dick "the hunter" Cheney

Who's that

[Derek T.]

Come on Roy, get off the fence and tell us what you really think of him :devil:

I'm off to bed. It's 4am :help:

[Ronald Wortel]

We may have some trouble finding decent wines and port here in the Middle East, one of the big advantages clearly is that petrol prices are state fixed at an incredibly low rate. We pay 0.114 Rial per liter, which translates to $0.30. No wonder that all those big, petrol drinking, American SUV's are hugely popular here. If you want to get anywhere outside of the capital, you need a FWD (roads have a habit of stopping quite suddenly here), so most people have one next to their saloon car (of they have two, one for on the road and one for offroad driving). We own a Jeep Wrangler from 1993. A great car, but I would never dream of buying such a car in the Netherlands. With a rate of 1l/5km it's hardly economic. BTW, for day to day use, we have a very dull and economic Ford Focus. I like that car a lot too.