M&S Ports

[John Holdsworth]

Visited M&S the other day, a store in the UK, and all their Ports had the V for Vegetarian on the bottles. Two of their Ports had a very good review by the Decanter magazine.

Gold

Marks & Spencer NV
Reserve, Port, PORT
(Red)

Mulberry, cassis nose. Very open and full, clean. Dark chocolate. Big, rich palate. Very fine savoury wine displaying maturity. Now ++.
UK price:7.49

Marks & Spencer 1999
Late Bottled Vintage, Port, PORT
(Red)

Ripe, rounded and balanced. Clean but mature. Hints of spice.Resolved tannin. Spirity on finish.
UK price:8.49

http://www.decanter.com/worldwineawards ... search.php

I always thought that the only vegetarian Ports were crusted. Many will have been fined, that is clarified to stop them being cloudy, with isinglass (from the swim bladder of the sturgeon), gelatine (animal skin and bones) or eggs (often from battery sources) etc, but all the M&S ones were marked as vegetarian. How have they been fined and is this the norm? I was told that only crusted Port can be guaranteed not to have been fined with gelatine but clearly this is not so.

[Jason Brandt Lewis]

WHAT?!?!?!?

I always thought that the only vegetarian Ports were crusted. Many will have been fined, that is clarified to stop them being cloudy, with isinglass (from the swim bladder of the sturgeon), gelatine (animal skin and bones) or eggs (often from battery sources) etc, but all the M&S ones were marked as vegetarian. How have they been fined and is this the norm? I was told that only crusted Port can be guaranteed not to have been fined with gelatine but clearly this is not so.

OK, obviously Marks & Sparks doesn't make the Port -- they buy it ready-made from a producer in Portugal. If that information is not on the label (it often is), it shouldn't be that difficult to find out.

The "crust" in a Port -- or in any wine for that matter -- has nothing to do with fining. It has to do with the fact that wines -- ALL wines -- will throw sediment with time. Standard White, Ruby and Tawny Ports have either been fined, or filtered, or both. So, too, have many table wines, but that won't stop the wine from precipitating sediment as they age.

Fining -- with premium wines -- is often done with egg whites from chickens (not from batteries). But no egg whites are left in the wine, so I wouldn't think being a vegetarian (or vegan, it sounds more like) is all that much of a problem. Certainly it's never stopped any of my vegetarian friends from enjoying wine. That said, if it bothers/concerns/worries you, then by all means avoid wines fined with egg whites. Isinglass is rarely used these days. Gelatin is, but a) its results are more "heavy" than egg whites, and b) let's not forget there are vegan gelatins. And, of course, blood (used for centuries) is now illegal. Filtration is often done with diatomaceous earth (DE), or just through paper pads.

I don't know who told you that thing about Crusted Porto, but -- no!

I suppose that a wine marked "vegan" uses no animal products whatsoever. Aren't you lucky that yeast is neither vegetable nor animal . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

[John Holdsworth]

WHAT?!?!?!?

I always thought that the only vegetarian Ports were crusted. Many will have been fined, that is clarified to stop them being cloudy, with isinglass (from the swim bladder of the sturgeon), gelatine (animal skin and bones) or eggs (often from battery sources) etc, but all the M&S ones were marked as vegetarian. How have they been fined and is this the norm? I was told that only crusted Port can be guaranteed not to have been fined with gelatine but clearly this is not so.

OK, obviously Marks & Sparks doesn't make the Port -- they buy it ready-made from a producer in Portugal. If that information is not on the label (it often is), it shouldn't be that difficult to find out.

The "crust" in a Port -- or in any wine for that matter -- has nothing to do with fining. It has to do with the fact that wines -- ALL wines -- will throw sediment with time. Standard White, Ruby and Tawny Ports have either been fined, or filtered, or both. So, too, have many table wines, but that won't stop the wine from precipitating sediment as they age.

Fining -- with premium wines -- is often done with egg whites from chickens (not from batteries). But no egg whites are left in the wine, so I wouldn't think being a vegetarian (or vegan, it sounds more like) is all that much of a problem. Certainly it's never stopped any of my vegetarian friends from enjoying wine. That said, if it bothers/concerns/worries you, then by all means avoid wines fined with egg whites. Isinglass is rarely used these days. Gelatin is, but a) its results are more "heavy" than egg whites, and b) let's not forget there are vegan gelatins. And, of course, blood (used for centuries) is now illegal. Filtration is often done with diatomaceous earth (DE), or just through paper pads.

I don't know who told you that thing about Crusted Porto, but -- no!

I suppose that a wine marked "vegan" uses no animal products whatsoever. Aren't you lucky that yeast is neither vegetable nor animal . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

The information is from the Vegetarian Society website, see Fortified Wines:

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/alcohol.html#fort

also:

Wines are even more complicated, for the fining process can involve any number of animal products - blood, bone marrow, chitin, egg albumen, fish oil, gelatine, isinglass and milk amongst them.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/campaign/vegan/alco99.htm

Dows Quinta Do Bomfi M Port

http://www.tesco.com/winestore/controll ... &R=3821643

says suitable for vegis and vegans, so I assume they must have some reason for noting this as I imagine every wine would like to sell to the most people as possible!

[Roy Hersh]

And I thought that Ports that were officially designated as ORGANIC and Kosher were oddities!

[John Holdsworth]

And I thought that Ports that were officially designated as ORGANIC and Kosher were oddities!

Same here, that's why I was surprised to see so many recently with the Vegi society logo on :?

[Jason Brandt Lewis]

The information is from the Vegetarian Society website, see Fortified Wines:

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/alcohol.html#fort

Yes, well that's pure bull$#!+ . . .

also:

Wines are even more complicated, for the fining process can involve any number of animal products - blood, bone marrow, chitin, egg albumen, fish oil, gelatine, isinglass and milk amongst them.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/campaign/vegan/alco99.htm

As is that. For example, it is illegal to use blood or blood products -- a combination of HIV and BSE, among other things.

The most common fining agents are (in alphabetical order) bentonite, egg whites, and gelatin/gelatine. Isinglass is also still used, though not as often as it was, say, in the 1960s.

I've never heard of anyone using bone marrow, though I suspect that falls under the HIV/BSE prohibitions.

I've also never heard of anyone using fish oil. It doesn't make any sense to me either, as a) it's too difficult to acquire in sufficient qualtities, b) it's often too aromatic, and c) it floats!

Milk, too, falls into the category of "once was used but is rarely if ever used today."

As for chitin . . .

Chitin is a polymer that can be found in anything from the shells of beetles to webs of spiders. It is present all around us, in plant and animal creatures. It is sometimes considered to be a spinoff of cellulose, because the two are very molecularly similar. Cellulose contains a hydroxy group, and chitin contains acetamide. Chitin is unusual because it is a "natural polymer," or a combination of elements that exists naturally on earth. Usually, polymers are man-made. Crabs, beetles, worms and mushrooms contain large amount of chitin.

(From http://wywy.essortment.com/whatischitin_rkkh.htm; the article continues with no mention of wine.)

Dows Quinta Do Bomfi M Port

http://www.tesco.com/winestore/controll ... &R=3821643

says suitable for vegis and vegans, so I assume they must have some reason for noting this as I imagine every wine would like to sell to the most people as possible!

Aside from the misspelling, I, too, imagine tesco would like to sell as many bottles of wine to the most people as possible . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

[John Holdsworth]

I think your missing the point with the Crusted Port. It's being quoted as vegi or vegan because no fining of any sort will of taken place, therefore no animal derived products are used to fine it. The crust is removed by decanting alone, therefore even if no vegi logo on the bottle it will still be suitable.

The ones that are now stating vegi suitable etc are the ones using your fining processes noted above that are using non animal derived fining processes.

Cheers

Johnny

[Jason Brandt Lewis]

Johnny,

I don't think I'm missing your point.

You began by saying that Crusted Ports are the only ones not fined, and so acceptable to those vegetarians (more likely vegans) who -- for whatever reason -- won't drink a wine that has been fined with with animal-derived products such as gelatin.

I can show you dozens of Late Bottled Vintage Ports which are labeled "Unfined, Unfiltered" -- so, right there, it's not only Crusted Ports.

Several of the animal products that are apparent cause for alarm are illegal and thus, there is NO cause for alarm . . .

What am I missing?

You must know stricter vegetarians than I, because most vegetarians I know LOVE wine and drink all sorts of it!

Cheers,
Jason

[John Holdsworth]

Johnny,

I don't think I'm missing your point.

You began by saying that Crusted Ports are the only ones not fined, and so acceptable to those vegetarians (more likely vegans) who -- for whatever reason -- won't drink a wine that has been fined with with animal-derived products such as gelatin.

I can show you dozens of Late Bottled Vintage Ports which are labeled "Unfined, Unfiltered" -- so, right there, it's not only Crusted Ports.

Several of the animal products that are apparent cause for alarm are illegal and thus, there is NO cause for alarm . . .

What am I missing?

You must know stricter vegetarians than I, because most vegetarians I know LOVE wine and drink all sorts of it!

Cheers,
Jason

Most of the vegis I know do drink just about everything as well but all the vegetarian site is saying is that you can count on Crusted Port not being fined so for vegis however strict it is a given to be vegi which of course includes vegans. Yours is very interesting information though as from the information I had read I did think the only one to be relied on to be vegi was the Crusted. I shall definitely show this information to some of the vegetarian drinks sites. I think the point from some vegis though is that they want it labeled if it is suitable rather than guessing at the fining process.

Slainte

Johnny

[Jason Brandt Lewis]

. . . but all the vegetarian site is saying is that you can count on Crusted Port not being fined . . . .

Johnny, I don't think that even THAT is true.

From the Premium Port website (the importers of the Symington brands into the U.S.):

(Dow's) Crusted Port is a blend of full-bodied first class wines from recent vintages, which have been matured in seasoned oak casks for two to three years before being bottled. The wine is bottled (unfiltered) and released after aging an additional three years in the bottle.

Nothing there about not being FINED, only that it's unfiltered -- two very different things.

From the Graham's website:

Graham's Crusted Port is produced from very fine, rich and full-bodied wines from recent vintages, drawn from the production of Malvedos and other reputed Quintas owned by the family. Crusted Port is matured in cask for two to three years and subsequently bottled without any filtration. The wine is then aged for a further three years in bottle prior to being offered for sale. The bottle maturation lends this Port its superb balance, complexity and style. Although ready to drink once released, Graham's Crusted will continue to develop in bottle for several years more. It makes a very fine dessert wine. Decant prior to serving.

Again, not a word about being unfined, only that the Porto was not filtered.

Indeed, the only reference -- admittedly after only a quick search -- I found that says that Crusted Porto is unfined is on the Churchill's wwebsite:

Crusted Port is a style of wine that was invented by English wine merchants when port was still being shipped in bulk and blended to their specification. it ceased to exist as soon as bulk shipments were stopped. There followed almost a decade before the Portuguese authorities reinstated Crusted port as a special category. Our Crusted Port is made up of the very best wines from two or sometimes three different harvests. It is kept in wood for up to two years and then bottled for further maturation. as this blend is not subject to any fining or filtration it continues to develop and mature in bottle. Given sufficient time, it throws a thick sediment, otherwise called a “Crust”. this is the English word from which it derives its name.

(My emphasis added.)

I don't think you can really COUNT on Crusted Ports being unfined, unless it's somewhere in the regulations of the D.O. -- and that I don't know for sure.

Cheers,
Jason

[John Holdsworth]

. . . but all the vegetarian site is saying is that you can count on Crusted Port not being fined . . . .

Johnny, I don't think that even THAT is true.

From the Premium Port website (the importers of the Symington brands into the U.S.):

(Dow's) Crusted Port is a blend of full-bodied first class wines from recent vintages, which have been matured in seasoned oak casks for two to three years before being bottled. The wine is bottled (unfiltered) and released after aging an additional three years in the bottle.

Nothing there about not being FINED, only that it's unfiltered -- two very different things.

From the Graham's website:

Graham's Crusted Port is produced from very fine, rich and full-bodied wines from recent vintages, drawn from the production of Malvedos and other reputed Quintas owned by the family. Crusted Port is matured in cask for two to three years and subsequently bottled without any filtration. The wine is then aged for a further three years in bottle prior to being offered for sale. The bottle maturation lends this Port its superb balance, complexity and style. Although ready to drink once released, Graham's Crusted will continue to develop in bottle for several years more. It makes a very fine dessert wine. Decant prior to serving.

Again, not a word about being unfined, only that the Porto was not filtered.

Indeed, the only reference -- admittedly after only a quick search -- I found that says that Crusted Porto is unfined is on the Churchill's wwebsite:

Crusted Port is a style of wine that was invented by English wine merchants when port was still being shipped in bulk and blended to their specification. it ceased to exist as soon as bulk shipments were stopped. There followed almost a decade before the Portuguese authorities reinstated Crusted port as a special category. Our Crusted Port is made up of the very best wines from two or sometimes three different harvests. It is kept in wood for up to two years and then bottled for further maturation. as this blend is not subject to any fining or filtration it continues to develop and mature in bottle. Given sufficient time, it throws a thick sediment, otherwise called a “Crust”. this is the English word from which it derives its name.

(My emphasis added.)

I don't think you can really COUNT on Crusted Ports being unfined, unless it's somewhere in the regulations of the D.O. -- and that I don't know for sure.

Cheers,
Jason

Intriguing, thanks for all that Jason, would it be OK to use all this information on other forums?

If anyone does know that it's somewhere in the regulations of the D.O that crusted is unfined etc. I would be very grateful.

Cheers once again for all your help

Johnny

[Jason Brandt Lewis]

. . . would it be OK to use all this information on other forums?

Sure. Why not?

If anyone does know that it's somewhere in the regulations of the D.O that crusted is unfined etc. I would be very grateful.

I am 99.99 percent sure there is NO requirement that a Crusted Port be unfined, but I'll try to remember to look it up when I get home.

Cheers,
Jason