Time to abandon "Generally Declared" Vintages for Port?

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Al B.
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Re: Time to abandon "Generally Declared" Vintages for Port?

Post by Al B. »

Roy Hersh wrote:Is it safe to assume you've read the Op/Ed in newsletter #94, right before the 2015 Vintage Port Report?

Feel free to discuss that here, (the Op/Ed) ideas, regardless of for or against.
I've just read the Op/Ed. Very interesting. It looks like we had very similar thoughts - and even thought about similar independent producers as examples!

I guess I really don't mind whether we see full declarations more frequently or not. Graham and Sandeman used to declare pretty much every year in the late 1800 and early 1900s. Noval has started doing that again.

As a consumer, I love producers who maintain quality by varying volume but who declare vintage port whenever they have the right quality. It creates more competition and offers the opportunity for independent producers to grab loyal customers through marketing or tourism opportunities and for those loyal customers to buy every year. I have complete verticals of Vesuvio going back to 1989 and of Noval going back to 1994. Although I am trying not to buy newly released vintage port any more, I am buying these to keep my verticals going. If I had visited Oscar before I visited Noval, I might well have had a complete Quevedo vertical instead of a complete Noval vertical.

I believe the importance of a general declaration is no longer relevant for us who read and post on these forums. We know the producers, we know the product and we know what we like. But I suspect we buy and consume a tiny proportion of the production of vintage port which comes out of the Douro in good years. The majority of buyers are probably heavily influenced by the storm of publicity which accompanies a declaration that is made in full by both TFP and SFE. That's the occasion when the "part time" buyer is influenced into putting their discretionary money into port rather than Bordeaux or Burgundy, because of all the noise associated with that specific vintage.

I hope there's a knock-on effect from the publicity of a "General Declaration". Hopefully the smaller producers who make a good product in those years also see an increased demand. Some of them really deserve it. I still remember how surprised I was when I peeled the wrappers off some blind tasting samples when I was tasting the 2011 vintage ports to find one of the best ports from the vintage (in my opinion) was the Quinta do Sagrado VP. I really hope that they sold well, as they deserved to on the merits of what they produced.

The fragmentation of the market does risk causing confusion in the eyes of the casual port buyer. They won't necessarily look beyond the known and comfortable names or the "general declarations". It will take a more educated buyer to learn a bit more in depth about the region and the producers before someone like Oscar would find it easier to sell a great wine from an un-declared vintage like his 2008 (which I thought was better than the Noval VP that year).

I think about my wife as an example. 30 years ago she knew about Taylor and maybe Graham as port producers, she bought me the occasional bottle if there was a declared year. Now she's met Oscar, Dirk and some of the Symingtons and is loyal to their brands. She buys me their ports if she can find them, and delights in contrarian buying from non-general declaration years - but she must be unusual in the greater world of port buyers.
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Al B.
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Re: Time to abandon "Generally Declared" Vintages for Port?

Post by Al B. »

Paul C. Metman wrote:
Al B. wrote:........... I love the diversity and the fact that certain producers in certain years really hit a home run. Anyone looking to buy a big, grown up 2015 vintage port should take a good look at Murcas...
Interesting, that you mention and recommand Murças VP '15! I visited Murças this year May and the winemaker told me they were very proud of their VP '15. I was surprised (and a little bit disappointed ;-) ) not to find the Murças VP '15 in Roy's review in Newsletter 94. Do you have any idea why not?
I've no idea why not. I can only speculate that their final blend wasn't ready or wasn't approved at the time Roy was asking for samples last summer.

Roy — if you can get hold of a sample of the Murcas 2015 VP to do a late addendum to your review, I would love to hear your thoughts on it please?
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Re: Time to abandon "Generally Declared" Vintages for Port?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Al B. wrote:
The fragmentation of the market does risk causing confusion in the eyes of the casual port buyer. They won't necessarily look beyond the known and comfortable names or the "general declarations". It will take a more educated buyer to learn a bit more in depth about the region and the producers before someone like Oscar would find it easier to sell a great wine from an un-declared vintage like his 2008 (which I thought was better than the Noval VP that year).
The casual buyer doesn't look beyond the usual names anyways. So that won't change. Well, it would change if it becomes a "cult" following in social media circles. The odds of that happening for VP is pretty slim.

This discussion is well and good, but we're really leaving out a very important topic related to VP's and general declarations. Is VP a dying Port type?
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Al B.
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Re: Time to abandon "Generally Declared" Vintages for Port?

Post by Al B. »

Andy Velebil wrote:
Al B. wrote:
The fragmentation of the market does risk causing confusion in the eyes of the casual port buyer. They won't necessarily look beyond the known and comfortable names or the "general declarations". It will take a more educated buyer to learn a bit more in depth about the region and the producers before someone like Oscar would find it easier to sell a great wine from an un-declared vintage like his 2008 (which I thought was better than the Noval VP that year).
The casual buyer doesn't look beyond the usual names anyways. So that won't change. Well, it would change if it becomes a "cult" following in social media circles. The odds of that happening for VP is pretty slim.

This discussion is well and good, but we're really leaving out a very important topic related to VP's and general declarations. Is VP a dying Port type?
Are you offering to write an Op/Ed for Roy's next newsletter? Go for it, a great topic and controversial too. Perhaps even a topic for AQFTPT.
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Re: Time to abandon "Generally Declared" Vintages for Port?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Did I just get myself into something inadvertently? Uh oh!


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Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Roy Hersh
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Re: Time to abandon "Generally Declared" Vintages for Port?

Post by Roy Hersh »

Paul Metman asked:
Interesting, that you mention and recommand Murças VP '15! I visited Murças this year May and the winemaker told me they were very proud of their VP '15. I was surprised (and a little bit disappointed ;-) ) not to find the Murças VP '15 in Roy's review in Newsletter 94. Do you have any idea why not?
While I know OF Murças, I have not had direct contact with them and so, did not request they send samples. Nothing nefarious. Other qualified journos ask help of the IVDP to obtain samples, but I prefer to go the Indie route, emailing all the companies I know. There were a few that told me upfront that they were not going to declare 2015, back in March. I mentioned the situation with a couple others, but they were left un-named by request.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Re: Time to abandon "Generally Declared" Vintages for Port?

Post by Paul C. Metman »

Roy Hersh wrote:Paul Metman asked:
Interesting, that you mention and recommand Murças VP '15! I visited Murças this year May and the winemaker told me they were very proud of their VP '15. I was surprised (and a little bit disappointed ;-) ) not to find the Murças VP '15 in Roy's review in Newsletter 94. Do you have any idea why not?
While I know OF Murças, I have not had direct contact with them and so, did not request they send samples. Nothing nefarious. Other qualified journos ask help of the IVDP to obtain samples, but I prefer to go the Indie route, emailing all the companies I know. There were a few that told me upfront that they were not going to declare 2015, back in March. I mentioned the situation with a couple others, but they were left un-named by request.
Hi Roy, please don't take my remark as criticism! I wondered, whether the Quinta das Murças VP 2015 was really existing: I could find it on their website, but Wine-Searcher doesn't show it anywhere. I hope you will have an opportunity to try and review it in the future (and for myself to purchase one or two bottles.... :D )
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Re: Time to abandon "Generally Declared" Vintages for Port?

Post by Roy Hersh »

Hi Paul,

If you have a contact for Murcas, please email me and I will be happy to find more info and obtain a sample to evaluate. Unfortunately, it won't be possible to assess blind, as I have no other 2015's to compare it to. I could wait and put it in a flight with 2016's next June. Anyway, just because it doesn't show up yet on Winesearcher.com means very little, as only some 2015's have shown up for sale in the USA and Europe at this point. Lots more still to come. 2016's late next year and more in early 2019.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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