Pink Port launched to mixed reaction - [www.harpers.co.uk]

[Roy Hersh]

I think Andy and Alex and Fred makes solid points. Many others here are just getting their feathers all ruffled for no good reason.

Unfortunately, I have still not received a sample, in order to apply a TN here. I am still hoping that will happen as I professionally judge in wine competitions and am able to divorce myself from my own likes and dislikes and can evaluate wine with a totally open mind. With TFP's effort to launch a new product to bolster sales and target an emerging market should be applauded, even if you don't like the Pink Port yourself. We all were pretty much in agreement that the Port trade needs to innovate and introduce Port to new and younger audiences. They have succeeded in doing so. Trading up from Coca Cola to Pink Port for 20-something drinkers and women and the club-goers, is exactly the demographics they seek to reach.

This is not for serious Port maniacs like the people posting here. That is why Fred said "they don't mind" that folks here don't like it. They are not trying to appeal to our palates. They make a wide range of Ports for us to enjoy and purchase. So, I think it is important to read what Alex wrote above and others too ... introducing Port to new consumers is a good thing. In order to see what they think, get 20 individual 25 years olds in a room and let them try it. You know what, I am sure that TFP did that prior to launch. They don't release a totally new product without doing market research including "tasting panels" etc.

So go back to your 20 year Tawny, your LBVs and Vintage Ports and realize that innovation is a good thing. A couple of weeks ago, I was up in Vancouver and Cristiano van Zeller was talking to me about the Pink Port. He thought it was a great idea and hoped that it would be a viable way to bring new consumers to enjoy Port.

I applaud their efforts too. Afterall, we all want to see Port get more notoriety. There is no such thing as bad press. Look how many posts we have in this thread. Even if the WHOLE group here does not like the product, the fact that it has raised so much attention and discussion, must be quite entertaining for the folks at The Fladgate Partnership.

Now if only they'd send me a sample. :devil:

[Derek T.]

I think Andy and Alex and Fred makes solid points. Many others here are just getting their feathers all ruffled for no good reason...I professionally judge in wine competitions and am able to divorce myself from my own likes and dislikes and can evaluate wine with a totally open mind.

Roy,

I do hope you are not suggesting that those of us who have tasted this stuff are incapable of giving it a fair evaluation. The opinions of those who have tasted the wine are surely at least as valid as those who have not. I did not like the concept from the outset but for one would have come clean had I liked the taste and recognised it as a Port wine. I did not, and I still don't like the concept.

I have tasted this port on more than one occassion and can say with a totally open mind that it is the worst port drinking experience I have ever had. It simply does not taste like port. I do not think this is represents good progress for the port industry. Not just for consumers with a similar palate to myself but the entire industry and its consumers. This is "dumbed down" port that is aimed at people who don't drink port because they don't like it. It is the equivalent to the good fellows of north east France deciding to make some fizzy, green mint-tasting juice and call it Champagne de Menthe. Farcical.

I really do think there are better ways to go than to produce poor quality wine and call it something that it is not. To me, this product represents a lack of creativity and innovative thought by TFP. They simply seem to have looked to hitch a ride on the alchopop bandwagon at a time when most other beverage manufatures are tiring of the idea.

Derek

[Al B.]

I have tasted this port on more than one occassion and can say with a totally open mind that it is the worst port drinking experience I have ever had. It simply does not taste like port.

But isn't that the point? I have had port that tasted foul, didn't taste like port - or even look like port. And then someone added some ice cubes, some tonic and a sprig of mint and I thought "Mmm. That's quite nice after all." But it wasn't port as I know and love.

Nor do I buy any of it - ever. But I don't say that it's wrong to produce it. It's a product for a different market. The only things that make it port are that it comes from the Douro region and is regulated by the IVDP.

Alex

[Tom Archer]

and is regulated by the IVDP

- Or is it?

Which classification does this juice fall under? - White? - Ruby? - Reserve?...

I don't buy the argument that 'it's not for us' - this product was not presented as being an entry level wine, but a product worthy of a price level above that of most Reserves. Moreover, if it's Port made in Portugal then it IS for us - even if we prefer to leave the cheapest Rubies to those less fortunate than ourselves.

Tom

[Andy Velebil]

Moreover, if it's Port made in Portugal then it IS for us - even if we prefer to leave the cheapest Rubies to those less fortunate than ourselves.

Tom

You just contradicted yourself on that one. There is no difference between the cheapest ruby that you don't buy and Pink Port that you won't buy. But millions of bottles of cheap ruby/tawny are sold every year...not to you and I, but to many others out there AND THAT IS THE POINT!

Everything has a target audience. We are the target market for VP's, top grade LBV's, Tawny's, and Colheita's. However, take the later as an example. How many Colheita's do you find in your area...or that you drink? Here they are everywhere. So while one country may not be the target area for one type of Port, another area is. Again, its marketed to a specific groups taste preference and/or what they will buy. Just like Pink Port is target at s spicific type of audience.

I do believe others that its really bad, as I trust their palates. But I've also had some really really bad upper end Port from producers that I will be very happy if I never have to try it again. I see no difference between the two.

[Tom Archer]

uncle tom wrote:
Moreover, if it's Port made in Portugal then it IS for us - even if we prefer to leave the cheapest Rubies to those less fortunate than ourselves.

then Andy Velebil wrote:
You just contradicted yourself on that one. There is no difference between the cheapest ruby that you don't buy and Pink Port that you won't buy. But millions of bottles of cheap ruby/tawny are sold every year...not to you and I, but to many others out there AND THAT IS THE POINT!

I don't see a contradiction. I prefer to drink the better ports - when I have the opportunity to do so - but when the choice is limited (as often happens on my travels) I will drink what I can find. I do not dismiss any class of port as being too lowly to consume.

There are two important differences between the cheapest Rubies and 'Pink Port'

- The first is that this new product is not cheap, and from its pricing is being marketed as a wine that is superior to the Reserves.

- The second is Derek's observation (which I will check for myself when I get the chance..) that this new drink is not recognisable as a Port, as is therefore abusing the name.

I DO buy cheap rubies - when I don't have the choice, and I WILL buy a glass of Pink (if I can't ponce one for free!) in order to make up my own mind.

THE REAL POINT - is that this wine is vulnerable to the charge of bringing the Port wine industry into disrepute. I would hope the IVDP will look closely at the pros and cons of having this product marketed as a Port.

Tom

[Luc Gauthier]

Great points everybody , dont you just hate It when people beat around the bush ?

[Derek T.]

Great points everybody , dont you just hate It when people beat around the bush ?

OK - now that Luc has said that I'm going to come off the fence here and tell you what I really think

Alex and Andy,

As you know I respect your opinions and your palates but I really do think you are missing the point that Tom, myself and some others are making here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with producing low end, cheap port that will be consumed by the mass market. I have tasted and enjoyed lots of it and will continue to buy some of it when the price is right. I also choose and am fortunate enough to be able to buy medium and high quality ports that I enjoy drinking far more than the £5.99 latest offer from Tesco or Sainsbury. However, a common theme through all of the styles and price points of the port I buy is that I can recognise it as the product we know as Port. Some of it is good, some of it is bad, and some of it is fabulous. But all of it tastes, smells and feels like Port. Pink Port does not.

What TFP seem to have done here is create a completely different style of wine that does not bear the slightest resemblence in terms of smell and flavour to any other Port style. That is not diversification. It is making a different style of wine. Naming it "Port" is allowing it to free-load on the back of a recognised style of fortified wine that it has little or no similarity to. Yes, some people will like it, but that isn't the point either. It may have sounded flipant, but my point above about green Champagne was serious. If someone made that style of wine and called it Champagne we would all be laughing our socks off that the producer had the audacity to try to cash in on the name of a world renowned style of wine by sticking a label on a bottle of something that had nothing in common with it other than gas and the shape of the bottle.

In recent years the Douro producers have diversified into producing very high quality dry wines. TFP have, almost, not followed this trend and have chosen this path instead as a means of trying to widen their customer base. Whilst everyone else is churning out VHS they have plumped for Betamax. Oh dear.

Derek

[Al B.]

Derek (and Tom),

I do understand the point that you are making - I just totally and utterly disagree (in a very gentlemanly and civilized way, of course).

I draw the pink port initiative as a parallel to the production of white port. To my taste, white port is foul, an abomination to the name of port and something to be avoided at all costs. It certainly doesn't look like port, smell like port or taste like port.

But it is port.

As I see it, the only difference between White Port and Pink Port is that White Port has been around since time immemorial and is therefore grudgingly accepted by us. Most white ports that I see in the UK are priced in a similar bracket to the price of the pink port and the fact that they are called port tells you only that (a) it comes from the Douro region and (b) that it was part fermented and then the fermentation arrested early through the addition of grape brandy.

To sum up - I understand that you see the Pink Port as so radically different from the two existing colours of port, but I don't understand why the new Pink colour is attracting your disdain when there is already a peculiar version of port out in the market that is white in colour and has to be mixed with tonic before being palatable.

Alex

PS - pink and white port are not permitted as entries to our blind tasting next Tuesday unless brought in addition to vintage port!

PPS - I predict an amusing and interesting discussion on Tuesday after tasting notes are finished

PPPS - anyone in or near London who would like to join a blind tasting on Tuesday night please drop me a PM, seats still available at the table

[Andy Velebil]

Derek (and Tom),

I do understand the point that you are making - I just totally and utterly disagree (in a very gentlemanly and civilized way, of course).

Derek and Tom,

What Al just said.

[Glenn E.]

I draw the pink port initiative as a parallel to the production of white port. To my taste, white port is foul, an abomination to the name of port and something to be avoided at all costs. It certainly doesn't look like port, smell like port or taste like port.

But it is port.

As I see it, the only difference between White Port and Pink Port is that White Port has been around since time immemorial and is therefore grudgingly accepted by us.

Bingo.

But you know what? Tawnies don't taste like VP, but they're still Port. White Ports don't taste like VPs or Tawnies. And now Pink Port doesn't taste like VP, Tawnies, or White Port. Each is its own separate product line.

...that is white in colour and has to be mixed with tonic before being palatable.

Not true! I have had some very tasty white ports. Some of them aren't even cheap - I have a bottle of a Porto Rocha white that usually costs around $100. The better ones taste (to me) a lot more like a dessert wine than a Port, but since I like dessert wines that's okay by me!

[Al B.]

...that is white in colour and has to be mixed with tonic before being palatable.

Not true! I have had some very tasty white ports. Some of them aren't even cheap - I have a bottle of a Porto Rocha white that usually costs around $100. The better ones taste (to me) a lot more like a dessert wine than a Port, but since I like dessert wines that's okay by me!

You are quite right, I was taking some poetic license to make a point.

However, I have probably found less than 6 white ports that I have enjoyed drinking unmixed and all but one were white colheitas. I don't generally enjoy drinking white port and would normally avoid it. The only times I have drunk unmixed white port are when someone else has offered me a glass and I have taken it out of politeness or curiosity. On the odd and rare occasion I have been given something that I like.

Alex

[Glenn E.]

You are quite right, I was taking some poetic license to make a point.

As poetry and wine go well together, I believe you are in good company.

[Derek T.]

To my taste, Pink Port is in an entirely new league of foulness when compared to any white port I have tasted. I think white port does taste like port and I also think that you can detect similarities amongst all of the traditional port styles in a way that is sufficient to hold them together as one multi-facited core product. Pink Port's relationship to red ports is not the same as white port's is. I don't like Taylor's Chip Dry White. I don't enjoy Cruz Ruby. I don't object to either of them carrying the name of Port because they both taste, smell and feel like port. Pink Port smells, feels and tastes like over-alcoholic cranberry juice and has no body, substance or refinement that makes me associate it with the word Port

Derek

PS: Alex, I'll put my bottle of Dalva White Colheita 1952 back in the cellar and bring you some Cruz Ruby to taste on Tuesday

[Roy Hersh]

I am sitting aside, watching this thread with similar fascination that some reserve for watching a car circle a race track 500 times, while waiting for a fatality in a wreck. :help:

Heck, almost 100 posts on a thread about PINK Port ... who would have thunk it. And in this way, The Fladgate Partnership has done a brilliant job of marketing. Getting some of the most geek encrusted Port fanatics on this website to continue to rant and rave on about their new product is a stroke of genius!

Nor do I buy any of it - ever. But I don't say that it's wrong to produce it. It's a product for a different market. The only things that make it port are that it comes from the Douro region and is regulated by the IVDP

.

Not true. It also is Port because it uses approved indigenous grape varieties that are specifically used to produce Port and DOC wine. It is also fermented for a short time 1-4 days typical of Port and fortified in the identical way with Aguardente. Because of its minimal extraction during a shorter than normal period of time on the skins, the juice is actually Port. The fact that the IVDP has yet to create a new category for it, has no bearing. It takes a lot of politics and regulations to be modified by the Portuguese government before the IVDP can enact a new category. In time, if others choose to produce their own version ... we could still see the creation of a brand new category.

[Derek T.]

I am sitting aside, watching this thread with similar fascination that some reserve for watching a car circle a race track 500 times, while waiting for a fatality in a wreck. :help:

Heck, almost 100 posts on a thread about PINK Port

Roy, this is the debate that the world of Port has been waiting on for decades:

The "Andy & Alex" v "Tom & Derek" Tag-team Challenge - I just wish Tom and I had the Referee on our side

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

I am sitting aside, watching this thread with similar fascination that some reserve for watching a car circle a race track 500 times, while waiting for a fatality in a wreck. :help:

Heck, almost 100 posts on a thread about PINK Port

Roy, this is the debate that the world of Port has been waiting on for decades:

The "Andy & Alex" v "Tom & Derek" Tag-team Challenge - I just wish Tom and I had the Referee on our side

Derek

Derek,
Thats only becuase I bribed him with some good VP's last weekend :twisted:

Roy does have a point. Actually, Pink Port is more "Port" than white Port is. "The Pink" (as I shall call it ) uses traditional grapes...white port uses different grapes than regular Port and, if you want to get technical, isn't really Port then, now is it. :blah:

I'm trying to crash into the wall here, its so much more exciting that way

ALEX...tag, your up

[Frederick Blais]

Roy does have a point. Actually, Pink Port is more "Port" than white Port is. "The Pink" (as I shall call it ) uses traditional grapes...white port uses different grapes than regular Port and, if you want to get technical, isn't really Port then, now is it.

White Port uses traditionnal and regulated grapes too!

[Andy Velebil]

Fred,

I know, I was being rhetorical since white Port uses different grape varietals than red Port

[Al B.]

I'm going to try some for myself before I come back into the debate.

For me, the most telling point in the discussion so far has been Derek's comment that he can see the similarities between ruby port, colheita port and white port. That's something that I can't do. If you gave me blind a glass of white port and a glass of red port I would struggle to relate them to each other.

When are Tesco going to start selling the Croft Pink Ponk?

Alex