For The Love Of Port

While we have some folks here still in their late 20's, many in their 30's and '40s and a few ancient guys like me who are 50 or older ... our buying habits vary too. Price always weighs into decisions, but often times it has more to do with:

a. one's age
b. how long they've been collecting
c. preference for young and vibrant vs. mature and nuanced
d. length of time it takes for VP to mature
e. room left in the cellar or places to put more new bottles/cases
f. all of the above


As many note in threads here, there seems to be a constant decision battle between buying older vintages for about the same or just slightly more than what current VPs are selling for. I noticed just the other day a mailer I rec'd showed a 1994 Fonseca selling for $10 more than a bottle of 2003. Now that is not an older vintage, but at least one with 14 years of age. I am sure if you look hard, you can find 20-30 year old VP examples where the 2003 price is not much less.

Anyway, at what point did you ... or will you ... stop buying any new releases of Vintage Port?

Also, should the 2007 Vintage be generally declared (we won't know officially for another 13 months) BEYOND PRICE what are the other dynamics which would influence whether you will buy in or not?

Unless I have children and decide I want them to inherit a bunch of Vintage Port, I would probably stop buying new releases when I'm 50 to 60 years old. That's quite a ways off though so who knows what will happen when I'm actually that old.

If 2007 is declared, I will buy as much as I can reasonably afford, focusing on my favorite houses and ones that receive good reviews. I suppose storage space is an issue but that is easily resolved with off-site storage.

Roy Hersh wrote:Anyway, at what point did you ... or will you ... stop buying any new releases of Vintage Port?

I have already stopped. Release prices are simply ridiculous and all recent vintages have dropped in price from first release. Buying "In Bond" 5, 10, 15 or more years down the line assures provenance so why pay the premium and then the cost of storage?

Derek

I generally don't purchase new releases. In my experience many mature VPs are priced in the same ballpark as recent vintages and given the choice I'll take the mature VP. One of the major determining factors for me in purchasing a VP is the potential "enjoyment factor" of that bottle of port. Scarcity of particular bottlings may also play a roll in my decision to pull the trigger and purchase a specific VP (depending on the particular shipper/vintage). Of course there are also a number of other factors, but those are the two "biggies".

Judging by all of the early reviews I'd say that 2007 will probably be a generally declared year. Given the amount of time since the last declaration and solid notes I've seen from early tastings, the odds are pretty good that we'll see a full blown declaration in 2009.

Marc

I only buy new releases if i can get them very very cheap. I was lucky a few times with that. I rather save my money for the older (40 +) vintages.
Storage space is also an issue. My wine cabinet is almost full. In the very near future i am rebuilding/building my house and i already reserved a spot for my future wine collection which can hold approx. 1000 bottles.
I dont think i will stop buying, because i like young vintages aswell. One of the best i ever tasted was the 2004 Javali. I will however not buy large quantities (2 cases) or more from, lets say 2015 and on.

There is no doubt that the price of new vintage port has become much too high. This is proven by the appalling lack of price support in the secondary market.

Vintage may be the producers most prestigious product, but the wine at first release does not deserve to be their most expensive.

The true commerical cost of storing a case of wine in good cellar conditions (in bulk) is around 3 euros (2 pounds) per annum, plus about 0.4% of value to cover insurance.

In any commercial environment, real capital growth of 4% would also be expected (over and above inflation)

If, for arguments sake, the 2007's are considered to be on a par with the 1983 vintage, then the UK trade prices for the '07's at release should be around 90 pounds per case for the top wines.

In practice however, I suspect the release prices to the trade will be about 3 times that amount, with retail prices around the 400 pound mark.

Good or bad, I will not be buying these wines on the primary market unless something pretty dramatic happens on the pricing front!

Tom

I stopped buying current releases after the 2000 vintage mainly b/c the prices became to high upon release and has been noted in many other posts, prices are dropping on the secondary markets. I am only 36yrs and suspect I will be drinking 2-03's and many newer vinatges later in life.

But rght now am looking to fill in with some 70-2000 as well as a few older ones for special occassions that I can find while bargain hunting. I will have wanted to pay $50-100 per bottle now as opposed to alot more in 15-20 years as older vintages become scarcer. However, I wonder as the Baby Boomers kick it, will we see many of their children offloading tons of great VP like they do now with antiques in Flordia for pennies on the dollar?

Beyond price, I'd probly buy VP in quanity to commemorate a special years event, or one that i might get connected to w/ a visit to the Duoro and tasted out of barrell, or maybe if Port becomes very popular among collectors in the future, i'd buy a vintage of the century so that I would get it before it really did go thru the roof price-wise.....but thats not predicted so much.

1995 is the general vintage cut off for me. I pick up 94's when I get good deal and try to hone in on the 80's vintages. For me, the 80's are where the best value/quality is. I have no interest in 2000+ vintages right now, but will cherry pick a bottle here and there. I do not see myself buying cases of 2000+ vintages for a few years unless someone offers me a deal I can refuse.

70's vintages are strictly bought at auction or private sales.

I have a ways to go before I'll need to stop, but like others have already mentioned the recent vintages are priced too high. Might as well let someone else store them for the first 10 years at these prices.

The 2007 vintage will likely be my "retirement port" meaning the one I'll start drinking when I retire. That'll give it 20 years to age. Hopefully I can find it for a reasonable price in 10 years or so, because the prices of recent vintages have frankly been outrageous. I can get 80s, 83s, and 85s for the same (or nearly the same) price as 2000 and 2003.

But I plan on drinking Port for many years after retirement, so I'm sure I'll keep buying vintages well into the 20-teens.

The last vintage that I bought in any quantity was 1994. This is for two reasons. The first is what's already been noted, that wines from top vintages of 20 years ago are cheaper than the new vintages today. That holds true for Bordeaux as well by the way.

The second reason is age. I'm currently 48. I prefer port that has at least 20 years of bottle age on it, but would prefer more age. I can't see buying vintages like 2000 and 2003 at the prices they are, knowing that I'm not going to enjoy drinking them until I'm in my 70s. I would rather stock up on 1977 through 1985, at a better price point most of the time, and drink them whenever I want.

All the best,
John

Roy, I am just a few years older than you at 56. You just let me know when you have boguht your "last" vintage and I will buy the next one.

I join the discussion a bit late, but here is my opinion.

I mainly buy VP because I like it but also a bit as a collectionner. I recently acquired the 2000 Niepoort VP from the Museum of Douro Collection. I like the wine a lot indeed, the label is nice, but I do like to collect different Niepoort bottles

For 2007, I'll probably buy around 20-30 bottles again. Mainly from my favourite producers. I'll probably not be able to age them long enough, but I have no problem drinking them in their first 20 years as I like VP at any stage of its life. So yes I'll keep buying them until I die probably. Hopefully someone will be able to appreciate it once I left.

It is difficult to say when I will buy my last VP... probably never as I enjoy the young fruit bombs to try to predict what they might end up becoming in 30+ years.

All things being equal, I would PREFER to buy older VPs and Colheitas. The problem is that the market I am in is relatively small and as such, what is available at release is snapped up and squirreled away in private cellars. It is rarely seen again on the retail markets in my area. A great example of this is the Fonseca Guimaraens I recently won at a charity auction. It was the personal property of a local retailer who put it in the auction simply because she knew I have been trying to source one of these forever and would pay top dollar for it. $215 later and I have my birth year Port... but at a steep cost. I am fine with the money going to a charity and I end up with my gem. Everybody wins. Except Roy, who wanted to keep this OFF the topic of money.

Availability is more what I am getting at here. Older VPs simply are not available here and since auctioning wine off in Canada does not seem to occur often (except for rare charity auctions) the supply is far out-weighed by the demand. Hence the stupidly outrageous prices.

Another prime example of this is the 1963 Taylor VP that was present at the tasting that Roy led (November '07.) Because this VP is so rare in my market, the price of this is $840/750 bottle. That's right. Almost the same as a Nacional from 1994. Unbelieveable.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that availability ends up affecting price.

Getting back on topic though, I will buy significant quantities of 2003, 2005 and 2008 (birth years for my kids) and try to seek out whatever '76s and '77s I can (birth years for myself and my wife respectively.) 2001 is a banner year (marriage year) so if I can, I will purchase some SQVPs, Colheitas, and LBVs from that year. Aside from that I do not yet have a strategy to stop buying VPs, except if the prices ever inhibit me from doing so. Then perhaps I will try to pick up whatever older VPs I can still get my hands on and enjoy those.

Todd

I will probably continue to pick up a case or two of Vesuvio from each vintage to keep my vertical going for as long as I am around. Beyond that, I might also buy a case or two of Fonseca or Taylor or Graham from declared vintages if the vintages come with a good reputation. Because of the contacts that I have, I can often get port at first release pricing in the UK and that can sometimes be advantageous.

However, I would estimate that even by buying like this only 10-25% of my annual port spend goes on en primeur ports with the rest being spent on bargain hunting and adding to my stocks. The bargains are sometimes from the '90s but seem to be more from the '80s and occasionally earlier. These are generally the wines I buy for current drinking as I am only now beginning to see the first wines that I bought en primeur beginning to hit their drinking window.

Alex

The dynamics of the last VP .
2009 just may become a watershed year for VP buying in Québec .
That is when the SAQ's prehistoric marketing philosophy changes .( See the SAQ heard me )
As John Mellancamp said . " When the walls .... come tumbling down !! "

But 'till that moment arrives , Price and only Price is the sole factor that influences my VP buying . . .

Some fascinating views from young and old alike. I am enjoying reading such diverse perspectives and cellar strategies, with a fantastic old Madeira in hand.

Todd (and others),

Have you considered buying and storing your 2003, 2005 and 2007s in the UK?

You could buy them "In Bond" which means you pay no tax at the point of purchase and then have them shipped home in a few years time when your kids are old enough to appreciate them. Even if you have to pay Canadian import tax at that point you will only be paying it based on the price that appears on your invoice from the time of purchase. This would be a very cost effective way of buying your long term keepers, especially if you buy them a few years after first release when the prices have dropped to normalised market levels.

For example, Fonseca 2003 is available "In Bond" today at $736 (CAN) for a case of 12. If you were to buy that now and pay the tax it would be around $912. However, if you buy it now and leave it In Bond and take it out in 16 years time when your first born is 21 you would still only pay tax (at the then prevailing rate) on the $736 purchase price. By then, allowing for inflation of around 4%, the market value would be around $1400 plus tax. It would cost you around £5-£8 per year to store the case in the UK. This means that the total cost to you by 2024 (assuming Canadian tax and UK tax were equivalent, which we know isn't true) would be around $1070 instead of $1645 to buy it outright in 2024.

If you needed help organising a supplier and storage facility there are plenty of us here who could chip in with practical help and advice.

Derek

Now that I've got a decent stash of more recent vintages, I'm working on back filling with older ones. Since they are around the same price as current releases, it's a no brainer. Although, due to budget and storage space I cherry pick for the top ones. I wish I could get more mid-term drinkers, but i just don't have the space to keep all those bottles. Then again, the top ones arn't all that much more than the mid-term ones in price, so I'd rather just get a couple more bottles of the top ones instead.

As for when I'll stop...not sure if I ever will. Ohh, I'm sure as I get older I'll start to slow down my buying quantity, but I don't ever see myself totally stopping, I love Port to much. And while I enjoy it more with age (around 20+ years), I also like it on the younger side from time to time.

Right now, I no longer own a car, so my "car payments" are going to port and wine instead. Eventually, my girlfriend will get sick of schleping me around and I'll have to give in. No matter how much I tell her the port is for our future, she sees a car in my future

Moses ,
Your better half schleps you around to buy VP !!!
Respect !!!