500ml bottles

[Julian old_ac Wiseman]

The October 2005 newsletter argues in favour of 500ml bottles. Allow me to use this forum to cast a vote for saving the 375ml, which is perfect for one (when dining alone, or, more plausibly, when dining with a pregnant wife). With four people one can be confident that at least a whole bottle will disappear.

[Tom Archer]

.. I agree.

For a couple, a half bottle is fine.

A half bottle between four is just plain stingy!

However, my biggest gripe is that 500ml bottles are marketed as a bottle, and are usually full height, but slightly slimmer - in short, a bit of a con.

[Frederick Blais]

Well... the idea of putting 500ml bottles on the market is getting somewhat bigger! I just saw today a bottle of Graham's 20 yo tawny in a 500ml bottle.

[Guest]

I also noticed that the Warre Otima 10 year also went from 1/2 bottle to 500ml size.

[Tom Archer]

Otima has been sold in 500ml in the UK for some time. It's crafty marketing, because I don't think consumers really appreciate that if it was a bottle proper, they'd be buying 50% more...

Tom

[Moses Botbol]

Otima has been sold in 500ml in the UK for some time. It's crafty marketing, because I don't think consumers really appreciate that if it was a bottle proper, they'd be buying 50% more...

Tom

Same in Boston, at least for 10 years. You're on the marketing; the wine ends up being more than just getting a 750ml.

I like to save the 350ml bottles from Lustau Sherry and they work well at holding port if you pour half directly into the sherry bottle, then decant the rest.

[Roy Hersh]

I believe that Otima has only been packaged in 500 ml bottles since its inception.

Have no fear, there is no real movement in Portugal to make the 500 ml bottle more of a regular fixture on the shelves.

[Philip Harvey]

(sorry if a version this post comes twice)

I think it's worth mentioning that more Maderia producers are now using the 50cl format. The arguement I understand relates more to affordability that to the usefulness of the actual format. As Madeira remains deeply unfashionable (long may it last!), the rationale is that new drinkers are more likely to pay £12 to try say a 50cl bottle of Henriques & Henriques excellent 10yr Verdelho than fork out £18 for a 75cl bottle they may not like.

And this trend appears to be building some momentum. Barbeito released their 1981 Vintage Verdelho last year in 50cls and I understand that this is the first time a true vintage Maderia (rather than a colheita) has been released in this format.

I guess the only concern for Madeira buffs is whether the 50cl format will be accepted by Madeira collectors who are used to trading in and pricing 75cl bottles.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if this trend moves over to the mainland. I suspect not for vintage port as the whole point of this style is that it matures in bottle. But I think there could be a good market for 50cls for some LBVs and especially colheitas.

[Otto Nieminen]

I find that just in table wines, in Ports also I want variety in bottle sizes. One of my favourite wines is Muscadet (not popular, but just hits all the right nerves for me!), and I'm happy that Chéreau-Carré (a good to very good producer) has halves, 500ml and full bottles. I have uses for all sizes. A half is just right for me when drinking alone: I won't get hungover or too tipsy if I drink it all, yet its just the right size if I just want a little bit with dinner over two nights.

500ml are great, as my gf loves Muscadet also and its a perfect size for two to share.

750 is great, because often there's more than my gf and I for dinner.

Same with port. 375s are great because I like to drink young VPs, but they tend to spoil before I can finish a 750. 500s are great because it's again a good size for two or three.

Long story short: I don't want to campaign for a single size; I want the diversity of all sizes.

-O-

[Andy Velebil]

Does anyone know how the 500 effects the aging process.

I ask this because I recently had a 1983 Grahams from a 375 and a 750 bottle. The 375 was definitly more evolved than from the 750.

[Derek T.]

I am still not convinced on this theory.

In order for it to be proven you would have to have access to the same wine in different bottle formats that had been bottled from the same source blend and stored in exactly the same conditions for their entire life.

How many people on this Forum can claim to have access to such examples that could be used to do a proper comparitive tasting?

Derek

[Otto Nieminen]

I am still not convinced on this theory.

In order for it to be proven you would have to have access to the same wine in different bottle formats that had been bottled from the same source blend and stored in exactly the same conditions for their entire life.

How many people on this Forum can claim to have access to such examples that could be used to do a proper comparitive tasting?

Derek

I'm not convinced of the theory either. I don't have any experiences with Ports, but with my favourite wine Musar. I've tried bottles of 1991 in halves and 750s which had been stored identically at the estate. The half was more advanced than the 750. But one instance where it can be proved that they were identically stored just is not enough.

I think the conventional wisdom is that the ratio between air and wine is different between different size bottlings, and therefore there is more air in small bottles which means that they develop faster. But I do agree that halves aren't always treated with the same respect as 750s so they may seem more advanced due to this. Also, I hear rumours that the corks used in halves aren't of the same quality as those in 750s - but who can verify this rumour?

There are just too many problems with stating this. But I suppose anecdotal evidence is of some value.

-O-

[Andy Velebil]

How many people on this Forum can claim to have access to such examples that could be used to do a proper comparitive tasting?

Derek

ONE....

[Derek T.]

Come on then, what have you got?

Derek

[Al B.]

TWO......

(but only with the Warre's '83. Maybe I'll get a case of halves and a full case from the next general declaration and test the theory in 20 years time.)