Vintage VS. Tawny

[LOUISSS J]

In this vid (around 26:40) David said : In perfect year we make a perfect Vintage Port and in imperfect year we make Tawny Port and after many years in wood it become a perfect Port.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYBwmsStfWw
I always thought that they take different grappe between Vintage and Tawny Port. Vintage grappes are more tannic and in Tawny the grappes have more acidity so each grappe are best for one type of Port. But if listen what David is saying in this vid I understand that Vintage Port have the best grappe (in best years) and Tawny Port have grappe from not best years (similarly to LBV?...).
I don't know if i will have a true answer one day.

[Andy Velebil]

This is not an easy answer as there are so many variables that come into play. A VERY short answer..

Even in a great year where a VP is made there are other grapes not used for a VP which are used for other things, such as putting aside for Tawny's or other types of Port. Often in non-classic declared years, where all or most of the grapes are not used for a VP/SQVP the grapes are not tossed out. Those years allow producers to have extra grapes to build up stocks of other things, such as Tawny's, LBV's, ruby's, etc. It's why you can sometimes get amazing LBV's, Ruby Reserves and/or Tawny's out of those non-declared years.

So the short answer is, it depends on what a producer needs.

I'm sure that's probably not the answer you're looking for but you've asked probably the hardest question to answer!

[Luc Gauthier]

Like Andy said , there are so many moving parts ...
One of them being "house style"
Some houses produce one dimensional ports , not made for the long term
Others specialize in tawnys
Here again , the house style comes into play

[Glenn E.]

This is similar to a question that we asked Dirk Niepoort when he was a guest here on FTLOP, and his response was essentially that you need different grapes to make Tawny vs Vintage Port. He said it is absolutely possible to make both in the same year, and also that it is not correct to say that tawnies are made from "leftover" grapes that weren't used to make Vintage. He also essentially said the same thing that you did here:

Vintage grappes are more tannic and in Tawny the grappes have more acidity so each grappe are best for one type of Port.

In conclusion, I would be suspicious of answers from producers who primarily make (or are primarily known for) one type of Port or the other, because they are likely biased toward the type of Port that they make. Dirk makes both and is known for both, so at least in this particular case I think his answer is more likely to be correct.

[Thomas V]

In this vid (around 26:40) David said : In perfect year we make a perfect Vintage Port and in imperfect year we make Tawny Port and after many years in wood it become a perfect Port.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYBwmsStfWw
I always thought that they take different grappe between Vintage and Tawny Port. Vintage grappes are more tannic and in Tawny the grappes have more acidity so each grappe are best for one type of Port. But if listen what David is saying in this vid I understand that Vintage Port have the best grappe (in best years) and Tawny Port have grappe from not best years (similarly to LBV?...).
I don't know if i will have a true answer one day.

A few thoughts to keep in mind.

Different houses focus on different styles of port. Fonseca and Taylor have always been know for their VPs where as Wiese & Krohn and Burmester are know for their wood aged ports. So their strategy for using which grapes (best quality in a year) are different.

Also ports are blended wines and not single variety. So you can mix touriga franca, touriga nacional, tinta roriz, tinta barroca, tinta cao and sousao in any combination you wish. Even further grapes of the same variety will come from different plots (and externally bought) and would have different characteristics and levels of sugar & acidity. My point being that you can, as a wine maker, create a wine that has the right amount of both acidity, tannins and structure for your house VP profile by combining grapes and vats how you see fit.

Myself as well as others tend to forget that vintage port makes up around 1% of production in a given year. There are plenty of top quality grapes in a vintage year to make other styles of port such as colheita and LBVs if you want a single harvest port or it could go into the rotation for the tawnies with an indication of age.

I think also what David is trying to say that vintage port require a very good harvest year to be able to make vintage port, as you only have 2 years until you need to be bottling the juice. You cannot let the magic of barrels help you for very long as is the case with colheitas and tawnies and thus mask any potential problems in the year.

my 2 cents.

[LOUISSS J]

I saw almost the same explanation about the quality of LBV. Do LBV are better in declared year or not declared year?
It was funny to see the différent answers between producers… especially between Symington, Quinta do Portal and Fladgate Partnership. Each had different responses due to their personal situation.
https://www.fortheloveofport.com/lbv-th ... tage-port/

Thanks for all the answer.

[Bert VD]

it's an interesting video.

what i understood mostly is that in top quality port you need good grapes but also very skilled people and the needed combination of specific grapes and skills is different for vintages and tawnies. and i think no winemaker will ever tell you he/she uses lower quality grapes for anything but his/her cheapest wine.

[Glenn E.]

vintage port makes up around 1% of production in a given year.

I believe that Vintage Port is closer to 2%.

Colheita is actually the rarest style of Port at around 1% of production (not counting Garrafeira which really only Dirk makes).

[Eric Menchen]

I believe that Vintage Port is closer to 2%.
Colheita is actually the rarest style of Port at around 1% of production (not counting Garrafeira which really only Dirk makes).

I've heard those numbers for years. But I wonder if they remain accurate circa 2020. Tawny and colheita popularity has increased a lot in the last decade, and a good number of countries have had a shift to more higher end Port consumption. Then again, France drinks a LOT of plain ruby, so maybe the upticks I've mentioned don't move the needle that much.

[Thomas V]

vintage port makes up around 1% of production in a given year.

I believe that Vintage Port is closer to 2%.

Colheita is actually the rarest style of Port at around 1% of production (not counting Garrafeira which really only Dirk makes).

You wanna haggle over 1 percent point? Maybe I didn't include decimals?

The point still remains. It is a very small percentage of the total production per year.

[Luc Gauthier]

Don't forget ... there are geeks among us
From the neophyte to the erudite to those who need to split hairs
One thing is certain , we love our port

[Glenn E.]

I believe that Vintage Port is closer to 2%.
Colheita is actually the rarest style of Port at around 1% of production (not counting Garrafeira which really only Dirk makes).

I've heard those numbers for years. But I wonder if they remain accurate circa 2020. Tawny and colheita popularity has increased a lot in the last decade, and a good number of countries have had a shift to more higher end Port consumption. Then again, France drinks a LOT of plain ruby, so maybe the upticks I've mentioned don't move the needle that much.

The IVDP numbers for 2019 indicate sales of ~795,000 liters of Vintage Port and ~425,000 liters of Colheita. That's out of ~113,600,000 total liters of Port, so the actual percentages are 0.7% and 0.37% and Thomas's 1% was correct. But that does seem awfully low relative to the old numbers I'd always heard, so I suspect this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison of the old numbers to the 2019 numbers.

That said, VP is still roughly twice the size (in volume) as Colheita, so that hasn't changed.

I can't link to it directly because the website doesn't allow it, but the global statistics table can be found at ivdp.pt (defaults to PT, but you can switch to EN in the upper right corner). Information -> Statistics -> Global Statistics. Then play with the filters. You can extract all kinds of interesting information from the various charts on the statistics page, such as the fact that the US pays the 4th most for its Port at 8.93 EU per liter (among countries that consume at least 100,000 liters), behind only Macao (10.00), South Korea (9.03), and Denmark (8.94). But Macao and South Korea are barely over 100K liters each while the US is at 4.7M and Denmark is at 2M. The UK (9.2M liters) consumes almost double as much Port as the US, but only pays an additional 8M EU (for an average of 5.47 EU per liter) to get it. So the US and Denmark are really the quality consumers. Portugal (44M liters / 4.56 EU per liter) and France (18M liters / 3.83 EU per liter) are the quantity consumers.