NEWBIE help - what to buy

[J yuen]

HI there, NEVER KNEW this resource existed but stumbled upon it today.

Just wondering what members think about a buying decision have to make for christmas....

within my budget (i live in the GREAT WHITE NORTH)

Taylors SVP 1966 vs Kopke 1966 vs 1967 Dalva vs Leonardo 40 (a little cheaper but thrown in)

OR... a combination of a 1966/1968 messias AND a leonardo 30

Was going to get a little something for myself for christmas

THANKS in advance for the opinion!

[John M.]

The San Leonardo 40 is superb. I do not know the others having not tasted them. Welcome to FTLOP!

[Andy Velebil]

The Taylor's is fantastic and between them I'd pick that one. Do I dare ask how expensive that one is up in your parts?

the S. Leonardo is a different Port since it's a blend, a fantastic one at that.

I'd avoid the Messias. I've generally not had great success with them in terms of very high quality as the others provide.

[Eric Ifune]

I love both the San Leonardo 30 and the 40. I might say the 30 is a slightly better buy. The 40 is a step up but not an enormous one.

[Phil W]

I love both the San Leonardo 30 and the 40. I might say the 30 is a slightly better buy. The 40 is a step up but not an enormous one.

+1

[Glenn E.]

Taylors SVP 1966 vs Kopke 1966 vs 1967 Dalva vs Leonardo 40 (a little cheaper but thrown in)

OR... a combination of a 1966/1968 messias AND a leonardo 30

First off, welcome to FTLOP!



Of the first 4 Ports, the S. Leonardo 40 is probably the best bang-for-your-buck. (I don't know what your prices might be like up North.) The Taylor and Kopke '66s are both superb, but not that much better than the S. Leonardo and they're typically much more expensive. In the US, the Taylor or Kopke would run about $275 - $300 while the S. Leonardo would be closer to $175 - $200.

Like Andy, I'd avoid the Messias. They're interesting to try, but really not worth a "treat" purchase.

The S. Leonardo 30 is also pretty amazing, and probably quite a bit cheaper than the 40. You might even be able to get the 30 AND the 40 for the price of the Taylor or Kopke!

[Andy Velebil]

The only reason I mentioned the Taylor's is the 30/40 year tawny's will always be there. You won't see the Taylor's again once it gone, well at least not for another 10 years anyways (If they have enough left to release it again in 2026).

So in that respect I'd try Taylor's or Dalva first, since once they're gone you may not be able to again for some time, if at all. IIRC, The Kopke has been around for some time, so I assume it won't be out of stock in short order. But again, that would be the third one in my list to try sooner rather than later. Then the others as time permits.

As a good learning tool, it would be worth it to get one bottle of the Messias at some point in the future. Just to try it and experience it. After all, the fun part of wine drinking is trying all kinds of things, even those that are generally not considered great. As that is what will give you good reference as to what all ends of the quality spectrum have to offer...and different producer styles as well.

[J yuen]

WOW thanks for the responses thus far! And thanks for the welcome!...

I forgot to post prices so that might help and may make people change their recommendations...

So here are some approximate prices but they are subject to me actually finding them at that price (may be out of stock).

Taylor SVP --- 240-280 depending on the store.... 1965 and 1966 -- is there a better year?
Kopke 1996 -- 220-230
Dalva --- 250
Leonardo 40 year --- 190
Leonardo 30 year --- 150
messias/barros others --- 100-150

So it seems like the messias and other maybe lesser producers (ie cheaper) may not be ?worth it in this christmas splurge purchase.... so one really good bottle is better than 2 lesser...

So that actually leads me to ask this secondary question....

What do you think is the sweet spot for value in PORT... i know this is a loaded question because maybe one person cant fathom spending more than 50 bucks and another wouldn't think twice about dropping 200 bucks... But if there is such a thing what do you think is the sweet spot... I've heard that the 20year tawny and around that age 20-30 year colheita is about the sweet spot... would people tend to agree or disagree?

THANKS again!!

[Andy Velebil]

So it seems like the messias and other maybe lesser producers (ie cheaper) may not be ?worth it in this christmas splurge purchase.... so one really good bottle is better than 2 lesser...

For such a special Christmas splurge, for me anyways, I'd rather focus on one really good bottle versus two lesser. That's just me and something you will have to decide. Of course, if you have many people sharing, then it may be worth it to get two of the same lesser priced bottles so everyone gets a good share and perhaps some left over to retaste it.

So that actually leads me to ask this secondary question....

What do you think is the sweet spot for value in PORT... i know this is a loaded question because maybe one person cant fathom spending more than 50 bucks and another wouldn't think twice about dropping 200 bucks... But if there is such a thing what do you think is the sweet spot... I've heard that the 20year tawny and around that age 20-30 year colheita is about the sweet spot... would people tend to agree or disagree?

Very much a loaded question and depends on a ton of factors. You will probably get many view points as this is a very personally subjective question. For "daily" consumption at home (i.e. a non-special occasion) I am generally opening things around the $50 (USD) or less per bottle and stuff that isn't so rare. As the older bottles get harder to find and prices go up I prefer to save them to share with other Port lovers when we get together. That is also affected by the fact I've been fortunate to have had a lot of the top Ports at least once or more already. Whereas in the past when I was getting into Port I was opening older things more regularly to gain knowledge about them since I hadn't had them at that point. I encourage people new to Port to try as much as they possibly can for the educational value.

Obviously for you prices will be a bit higher, and of course it depends on what you can afford, so it is really going to depend on what you are looking for and willing to spend for more regular non-special drinking. And as I mentioned, being new to Port you shouldn't be afraid to open and enjoy those more rare older Ports to help broaden your knowledge. Which is also important so you learn what types of Port you actually really enjoy. For example, it would be a shame to buy a ton of tawny's to stock your cellar with if later you realize you prefer young LBV's instead. All you'd be stuck with is stuff you really don't enjoy all that much.

Lastly, don't be afraid to like what YOU like. You will hear people say very old VP is the best Port out there and some will say an old Colheita is the best. What you end up liking is totally up to you and don't be swayed by others trying to tell you what you should like.

[J yuen]

thanks very much for the advice....

as you can see i'm very much a noob...

haven't even tried a VP yet... and really just like you say trying things out to see what i like and where i want to go with this.

Also trying to figure out how to build a PORT collection as well... soo many decisions and as you can tell from my name above... i'm asian and well to be frank, only have so much tolerance for alcohol haha... but that hasn't stopped me....

[Will W.]

J,

Welcome to the site.

I see that you are in Ontario and, as such, a prisoner of the provincial liquor monopoly/LCBO. My commiserations.

You will have made your Christmas buy(s) by this point; for what it is now worth, I reckon that the San Leonardo 30 or 40 were the best buys at the prices which you noted and, indeed, I pulled a SL40, amongst others, for my own imbibing today. Going forward, even the LCBO offers a few reasonable buys in the CAD 30-60 price range. As I live abroad, in richer port climes, I would not normally waste my time at the LCBO website. In the event, a few old pals were around to see me in October from Ontario and, having torn through several of my better bottles, they were keen on finding port for themselves upon their return home. To get them started, I suggested the following:

http://www.lcbo.com/lcbo/product/kopke- ... 1996/63743

http://www.lcbo.com/lcbo/product/quinta ... 001/402354

http://www.lcbo.com/lcbo/product/dalva- ... 1995/69930

I would not bother with any of the lesser-priced vintages at the LCBO, because they are not ready to be consumed; late-bottled vintages (LBVs) are not a personal preference but there are contributors to this website who can guide you in this respect. There are additionally a couple of twenty-year old tawnies at the LCBO which are not too expensive and would be enjoyable. Owing to the weakness of the CAD relative to the EUR, some of the LCBO prices are not (at the present time) as grim as one might expect, that is, not too far above what one would pay in a retail shop in Lisbon, for instance. The San Leonoardo 40 is a case in point. However, the relatively (by Ontario standards) good buys are likely to change soon enough as existing LCBO stock is exhausted and needs to be replaced at current exchange rates.

Overall better port value, if you get into the stuff over time, will be had in buying from America through, say, www.wine-searcher.com and taking the hit from customs as bottles arrive.

I hope that this helps; happy drinking.

[Luc Gauthier]

Like Andy and others messias is worth a try .
One of my firsts was a messias 63 while not a great port it was worth investigating

[Eric Menchen]

Well after the fact, but some responses for future thinking:

Messias? Yes, if I were buying one bottle for Christmas, I would skip it. On the other hand, as a lover and explorer of Port, I would jump at a bottle for the right price. I'd bring it to a tasting of other like-minded people; but I'd bring another bottle of something I was more sure of in case the Messias turns out to be a total flop. It is a gamble.

Sweet spot? Yes, this is a loaded question. But for tawnies with indication of age, I think the S. Leonardo 30 is in a nice spot. As someone else mentioned, the 40 is better, but not that $ better. In general I find 20 year old tawnies to offer a lot more flavor than their 10 year old equivalents, enough to justify the price difference. Sometimes the 30s do, sometimes not.

[Glenn E.]

So that actually leads me to ask this secondary question....

What do you think is the sweet spot for value in PORT... i know this is a loaded question because maybe one person cant fathom spending more than 50 bucks and another wouldn't think twice about dropping 200 bucks... But if there is such a thing what do you think is the sweet spot... I've heard that the 20year tawny and around that age 20-30 year colheita is about the sweet spot... would people tend to agree or disagree?

It's not as loaded as you might think, simply because economic principles can be applied.

As you already noted, 20 Year Old Tawnies are generally considered to be the sweet spot for QPR (quality to price ratio) on the tawny side. It's pretty normal for a good 20 Year Old to rate in the 92-94 range, which is a pretty darn good value for the typical asking price of around $50. 10 Year Olds will sometimes rate as high as 91 or 92 points, but there's enough variety in styles (and age profiles) in the 10 Year Old category that I can't give it the sweet spot designation despite its lower price. 20 Year Olds are just more consistent.

On the Ruby side I'd have to give the sweet spot to Unfiltered LBVs. While they are generally simpler than Vintage Ports, they can age very nicely and are drastically less expensive. Quality unfiltered LBVs are typically in the $20-$30 range and can rate 92-93 points. Vintage Ports (and single Quinta Vintage Ports) can rate much higher, but are typically 3x to 5x the price when new and significantly more expensive when aged.

Above either of those, the marginal return drops significantly. Yes, you can get better Ports than a 20 Year Old Tawny or an unfiltered LBV, but the amount you have to pay goes up dramatically.

[J yuen]

THANKS so much for all your input.

And to let you know that your input was definitely used to good use; i've come back to let you know how the hunt went and what was bagged....

So the christmas purchase?....

Well given the opinions voiced here i went with the Taylors SVP... but an IMPULSE at the time AND the fact that they gave me a discount i gave in...

SO i ended up with BOTH the 1965 and the 1966 Taylors SVP for 240 cdn (LCBO has this at 300)... Now need to find an opportunity to open them...

Also, since you all here seem to be enamored with the leonardo 30 i had to get one to see what the fuss was about 140cdn (not availible at the LCBO)

But no... i wonder if i'm the only one infected with the buying virus, but i couldn't help myself... (if i bought at least 6 i get a dicount....)

So i ended up with a barros 1967 (not availble at LCBO), a sandleman 30 yr old (not availble at LCBO), and a trio of taylors tawnies (20, 30, 40) for a future vertical (these were at SUBSTANTIAL savings over LCBO) haha

Now i've blown my budget for who knows how long... maybe until i sign up for the newsletter and get in on the buy op... (don't tell the wife).

Back to the sweet spot... i have to agree that with MR TAWNY... maybe it's the scientific part of me but in most of life i find there's a sweet spot... where there's a point of limiting returns...The key is to find it... haha and as you can see above in the purchases i haven't found it yet... =)

so i figure a vertical and a horizontal later i should come to that point... but just from a pocket book point of view i would have to say the 20's probably are where it will be... for the tawnies... and then the special occasion bottles that care not the pocket book.

For the rubies i haven't tried enough to know... so i'll need to delve into those... i'll be on a new hunt next year for as mr tawny suggests some unfiltered LBV and also at least a handful of VP's for my own palate to test out what i like and what i don't... so maybe a 10,20,30,40 year old VPs if i can source them then maybe i'll be more knowledgeable... more bankrupt... more drunk....

[Glenn E.]

We need to figure out a way to get you a taste of the S. Leonardo "60" Very Old Tawny Port. It's an absolutely amazing tawny, and is really pretty reasonably priced for its quality. The problem is that it is VERY hard to find in North America, though that's slowly changing.

I gave it 100 points the first time I tasted it, and have consistently given it 99 points ever since (and one 98). Despite what I just said about it being hard to find in North America, it might be the most accessible 99-point Port in existence. Normally you'd probably be talking about a Noval Nacional in order to get a score like that, which means you'd be talking $1000 or more. I've only seen the "60" on winesearcher.com once (it's there now) and it's $470. Not cheap, but for what you're getting it's a screaming deal. Give it some time to penetrate the market (it's relatively new in North America) and that price might come down a bit, too.

[J yuen]

Yes I need to find an amerifriend to ship items to and then find a way of getting it across the border....

Why is it so hard!