Need advice on what to buy for my Dad...

[Matt Daniels]

Hello,

I know this might seem like a big request especially since I am a new member, but I would love some advice. My 70 year old father and I drink Port whenever we get together twice or three times a year and I want to build up a bit of a collection for us but I am not sure what I need to buy.

Constraints:
$2,500 budget total
5-10 bottles
drink within the next three to five years

Thank you for your help!
Matt

[Glenn E.]

Hi Matt, welcome to FTLOP!

Your constraints are reasonable and don't limit selection all that much. Just about any Port purchased today would be fine to hold and drink over the next 3-5 years, so that's not even really a constraint. The budget simply helps us work to a goal and really only prohibits too many bottles from 1950.

Which, just to be certain, was your 70-year old father born in 1950? Yes = good, we can work with that. No = sadly no Port from his birth year. I'll assume he was born in 1950.

A quick search on wine-searcher.com reveals several bottles from 1950 at a store called Old Liquors in Miami, FL. They are not known for having the best prices, but they are known for having a very large selection. (Those are likely related!) They have bottles of Ramos Pinto and Cockburn Vintage Ports for $300 and $530 respectively, followed by what I assume is a 1950 Kopke Colheita mis-labeled as a 1950 Kopke Vintage Port for $600. After that prices rise dramatically for Ports from 1950, but those 3 would give you some fine bottles from your father's presumed birth year. I have no real knowledge of the 1950 Ramos Pinto VP, but the Cockburn VP and Kopke Colheita are both very nice bottles of Port.

That puts us at 3 bottles for $1430, leaving $1070.

At this point you just want to find nice bottles to share. Depending on how young you are willing to go, it is fairly easy to find bottles from the mid-80s that are both superb and reasonably priced. 1985 Fonseca or Graham can usually be found for $100 or less each. The same producers from 1970, though, while equally good if not even better will run $250-$300 each for Fonseca or $175-$225 each for Graham. (It's their 50-year anniversary, which always causes a price increase.) 1970 Taylor or Dow fit between, price-wise, at around $200-$250.

1 ea 1985 Fonseca, 1985 Graham, 1970 Taylor, 1970 Dow will probably run around $750 total, putting us at 7 bottles for $2180, leaving us with $320.

For $320, I would pick up a pair of nice 40 Year Old Tawny Ports. The brand almost doesn't matter, but to provide suggestions Mission Wine & Spirits in Los Angeles has Quinta do Noval for $145, and a couple of Total Wine stores in the Bay area have Sandeman for the same price.

That's just a quick survey of what's available using wine-searcher.com, and I intentionally chose a wide range of producers and styles. 9 total bottles for around $2470 depending on exact costs.

If you can narrow down the types of Port that the two of you like to drink, we can perhaps provide a more tailored suggestion.

[Matt Daniels]

Hi Glenn,

Thank you for the kind welcome and the great advice!

I was wondering what your thoughts on half bottles of Port are? We usually only finish about half a bottle in one session so I thought buy purchasing half bottles we might be able to sample more great bottles of Port. What do you think?

Also, I am new to purchasing Port online and in the forums I noticed a few posts about people potentially purchasing counterfeit bottles of older Port. What should I do to ensure that the Port I purchase online is genuine?

Finally, when I purchase Port what shipping option should I use? Is two day delivery acceptable?

Thank you again for all the great advice and I am excited to be part of the FTLOP community!
Matt

[Luc Gauthier]

Agree with almost everything Glenn said
I would rather pick 20 yr old tawnys
Not only are they half the price of a 40 yr old tawny but also they are more balanced

[Eric Menchen]

Glenn has given you good advice. Before I replied with specific recommendations, I was wondering what you liked, or if you had preferences. Prefer old colheitas, or young VPs, or ...

As for half bottles, they are certainly worth considering. They age more quickly, but I buy plenty of them for more frequent consumption, and open the bigger bottles when I can share, or I know that I'll be able to enjoy it for several days. Recently I've enjoyed many half bottle VPs from 1980, 1983, 1997, and some 1992. I've opened a few 1994 halfs, and younger VPs like 2007 from half bottles as well. If I were buying, I would be hesitant to buy old half bottles from a vintage like 1970. It is a great year, but even 750s on the aftermarket are suspect.

Shipping is dependent on distance. I live in Colorado and nearly everything I buy comes from the east or west coast. I always ship via ground, but only twice per year, once in the spring around April-May, and in the fall September-October. I don't want my wine baking somewhere in the summer. Freezing in the winter is less likely, but still a risk since a truck might get stuck waiting for a snow storm to pass in the mountains. Air shipments might alleviate some of these concerns, but there is risk there too, with a shipment sitting on a hot tarmac or in a freezing cold plane. I don't think the extra cost of air really reduces the risk enough to justify the price. I primarily purchase from places that will store my wine for free for 6 months. Most of the auction houses will do this, and plenty of retailers will as well.

[Matt Daniels]

Thank you for the great advice everyone! In terms of what type of Port we prefer, the honest answer is I don't know! We've been drinking Port for years but mainly cheaper 10yr or LBV bottles of whatever our local stores had in stock. Now that we are stepping our game up so to speak, what would you recommend for someone trying to figure out what they like? Maybe figuring out what we like would be a good way to spend the first $2500?

Thanks again,
Matt

[Glenn E.]

I was wondering what your thoughts on half bottles of Port are? We usually only finish about half a bottle in one session so I thought buy purchasing half bottles we might be able to sample more great bottles of Port. What do you think?

Half bottles are great! They are usually slightly more expensive than half the cost of a full bottle, but it's not usually by a huge amount. The one problem with half bottles is that they're generally understood to age more quickly than full bottles, so it can be difficult to find half bottles of old(er) Vintage Port.

It's fairly easy to find half bottles of old(er) Tawny Port, though, because Tawny Port is bottled when it is meant to be consumed. I.e. recently, as opposed to a 1950 VP having been bottled in 1952.

Also, I am new to purchasing Port online and in the forums I noticed a few posts about people potentially purchasing counterfeit bottles of older Port. What should I do to ensure that the Port I purchase online is genuine?

As long as you're shopping at a reputable online retailer you should be fine. And if you ever see a bottle that you're just not sure about, point it out here on FTLOP and we'll help you sleuth it!

Finally, when I purchase Port what shipping option should I use? Is two day delivery acceptable?

It depends on the time of year and how long it will take for ground shipping. I live in Seattle and ship using ground from California all the time because it still only takes 2 days and usually spends the night in Portland. So I can check the weather forecast and make my decision that way. But really other than summer - which is now approaching - I can ship from California using ground shipping for most of the year.

On the East coast you'll want to avoid winter as well, as freezing temperatures are also bad. But realistically any kind of express or air shipping, even 2-day, should be fine because the package will spend the night in a warehouse at an airport not outside in a truck. Shipping ground across the country means your package will spend potentially multiple nights in the back of a semi so that should only be done when the weather is neither freezing nor hot along the entire route.

[Glenn E.]

Thank you for the great advice everyone! In terms of what type of Port we prefer, the honest answer is I don't know! We've been drinking Port for years but mainly cheaper 10yr or LBV bottles of whatever our local stores had in stock. Now that we are stepping our game up so to speak, what would you recommend for someone trying to figure out what they like? Maybe figuring out what we like would be a good way to spend the first $2500?

In that case I would wait before picking up anything from 1950. The younger recommendations that I gave you would still be good and would give you an idea of whether or not the two of you enjoy older Port. Start with the 1985s because they're less expensive and closer in style to an LBV. If you don't like the "age" on those then you almost certainly will not like a 1970, 1963, or 1950 as they'll be even softer and more aged.

On the Tawny Port side, the general consensus is that 20 Year Old Tawny Ports are the peak of the quality-to-price ratio (aka QPR). They exhibit some very nice tawny characteristics, but are not as expensive as a 30 or 40. Some of us really love 40 Year Old Tawny Ports, but the opportunity cost of one is quite high - they're usually expensive enough that you could have purchased 3 or even 4 bottles of a 20 for roughly the same price.

Colheitas are tawny ports from a single year and have the year on the label in much the same way that Vintage Ports list the year. You can find them from most years, and the older they are the more expensive they become. They are aged in wood for years or decades before being bottled and so are fairly similar to a 20-30-40 Year Old Tawny Port of approximately the same age. I generally feel like a Colheita needs to be a little older than a 20-30-40 to be equivalent. There are several reasons for that but I won't go into them just yet as the eccentricities of Port can be a little overwhelming. Suffice it to say that if you try a 20 Year Old Tawny Port and like it, and want to try something similar in a Colheita, you'll probably want to aim for something from the early to mid 1990s. I.e. 25-30 years old. For 30s and 40s you'll probably want a Colheita that's 10 to 15 years older. But that's just me, and it does vary depending on both brands.

[Mike J. W.]

I would also recommend you get a Vintage Port from 1994 which is not too old as opposed to a softer, more rounded, older Port like something from the 60's or early 70's. 1994 is a classic year and the two top Vintage Ports from that year are (in my opinion) Fonseca and Taylor Fladgate. I would lean towards the Fonseca as I find the Taylor Fladgate's normally take longer to mature. The '94 Fonseca's are drinking really well right now with a good 8 to 10 hour decant. Try one and you'll see what the fuss is about regarding a highly regarded Vintage Port.

[Matt Daniels]

Glenn, Mike and Eric,

Thank you for the great advice. I think I'll start by purchasing the following:

Taylor Fladgate Vintage Port 1994
Fonseca Vintage Port 1994
Taylor Fladgate Vintage Port 1985
1985 Fonseca Vintage Port
1985 Kopke Colheita Port
2017 Taylor Fladgate Vintage Port

What am I missing from the great recommendations you've given me?

Thanks again for all the help!

By the way, the Portugal tours look interesting. Any advice on how to decide which one to potentially take?

Matt

[Luc Gauthier]

You can give 20 yr old tawnys a go
Give Smith Woodhouse a whirl , their vp's sometimes rival the big boys for less the price
Don't neglect any unfiltered LBV's

[Mike J. W.]

If you're looking at a 2017 I would definitely swap out the Taylor Fladgate with the Niepoort for a few reasons. One, Taylor Fladgate's take a very long time to mature. Very long. They're great Ports, but in my opinion they are one of the slowest Ports to mature. The 2017 Niepoort is a blockbuster and rated even higher than the Taylor's in 2017. It's also slightly cheaper and can be drunk young, but will also age.

I'd probably also swap out the '85 Taylor for either an '85 Graham's an '83 Graham's or an 1980 Dow or 1980 Gould Campbell.

[Glenn E.]

If you're looking at a 2017 I would definitely swap out the Taylor Fladgate with the Niepoort for a few reasons. One, Taylor Fladgate's take a very long time to mature. Very long. They're great Ports, but in my opinion they are one of the slowest Ports to mature. The 2017 Niepoort is a blockbuster and rated even higher than the Taylor's in 2017. It's also slightly cheaper and can be drunk young, but will also age.

I'd probably also swap out the '85 Taylor for either an '85 Graham's an '83 Graham's or an 1980 Dow or 1980 Gould Campbell.

I agree with Mike on both points. The 2017 Niepoort is a phenomenal Port - probably one of the best of the vintage if not the best.

And while the 1985 Taylor is a good Port, it is just a good Port. All of the suggestions that Mike gave are better Ports and probably won't cost any more.

By the way, "Taylor" and "Taylor Fladgate" refer to the same producer when you're talking about Port. The Fladgate Partnership (which owns Taylor, Fonseca, and Croft) has to use the brand name "Taylor Fladgate" in the US because there's a small winery in upstate New York that owns the rights to the brand name "Taylor" in the US. In the rest of the world the same Port is known simply as Taylor.

[Moses Botbol]

Unless you want to wait 30 years, I would not bother with 2017 vintage port. For similar money you can buy well stored port from the 1980's. The better ports from that decade have plenty of life left in those; you have decades to drink them.

[Matt Daniels]

Luc, what 20 year old tawny and unfiltered LBV do you prefer?

Glenn and Mike, thanks! I'll make the swaps you recommended.

Moses, you brought up a point I was wondering about. It seems as if Port prices don't increase dramatically with time (at least for the first thirty years or so). With this in mind, do most people not bother purchasing recent Vintage Port and instead purchase Port that has been cellared by someone else for awhile and is now ready to drink?

[Moses Botbol]

Moses, you brought up a point I was wondering about. It seems as if Port prices don't increase dramatically with time (at least for the first thirty years or so). With this in mind, do most people not bother purchasing recent Vintage Port and instead purchase Port that has been cellared by someone else for awhile and is now ready to drink?

I don't buy many modern vintages of port. If there is a mega deal (by my standards) then I'll pick up a couple, but they are more for novelty sake than anything else.

Tawny and colheita port I look for as recent a bottling date as I can find. If you only have access to retail, LBV's or a good bridge between a modern vintage and something than can be drunk in the next decade or two. There should be plenty of 2011 LBV's in the market place. Warre, Dow, Niepoort, Ferreira, and Noval are my go to's for easier to find LBV's in the US.

[Glenn E.]

It seems as if Port prices don't increase dramatically with time (at least for the first thirty years or so). With this in mind, do most people not bother purchasing recent Vintage Port and instead purchase Port that has been cellared by someone else for awhile and is now ready to drink?

It really depends on what you want to do with your Port and why.

I have 3 full-size wine refrigerators that I use as a "cellar" in my office, so I purchase some VP with the intent to age it myself. I get enough so that I can open a bottle to "check on it" a few times as it ages, but the intent is really to know the provenance of the Port once it is mature. But I also purchase VP that someone else has already aged for me, because as you noticed a VP with 30 years of age is about the same price as a new release. Modern winemaking techniques have made newly released Vintage Port much more approachable when young. Some people - which includes me - like to drink young VP even though those with a more purist point of view think it's a waste of what could be great Port 30+ years from now.

I think that getting a bottle or two of 2017 Vintage Port is actually a great idea for you. You said that you and your father have been drinking mostly 10YO Tawnies and LBVs, so trying a young VP will hopefully show you the difference in quality between an LBV and a VP. You can't get that as easily by comparing an LBV to a well-aged VP because they're so different. But with similar age the quality difference should be stark and easy to see. 2017 LBVs probably won't hit the market until roughly 2022, so keep one of those 2017 VPs on hand until then for a head-to-head comparison.

[Eric Menchen]

With this in mind, do most people not bother purchasing recent Vintage Port and instead purchase Port that has been cellared by someone else for awhile and is now ready to drink?

That is a big topic all by itself. The big question is proper storage. If you buy from someone else, how was it stored for the last 20-30 years? A well stored 1985 Port is wonderful. A poorly stored one? On the flip side, how can you properly store it, and what is the cost? I built a walk-in wine cellar, with racking and a chiller unit I found on craiglist (supplemented by one custom rack, some shelves, and an engineered controller for the chilling unit). So my construction cost was reasonable and the operating costs are low. I bought plenty of 2007 and 2011 and other recent releases because I believe I can store them well for a reasonable cost until I'm ready to drink them. If I were paying for offsite storage, or had to spend more on the cellar construction, I might have come to a different conclusion.

[Thomas V]

I think I'll start by purchasing the following:

Taylor Fladgate Vintage Port 1994
Fonseca Vintage Port 1994
Taylor Fladgate Vintage Port 1985
1985 Fonseca Vintage Port
1985 Kopke Colheita Port
2017 Taylor Fladgate Vintage Port

What am I missing from the great recommendations you've given me?

$2500 for 5-10 ports is a very rich budget in my opinion and for someone that to me seems like "casual" port fans I would probably stretch the budget and look for good value bottles instead of blowing it all on a few bottles. The 1994 Taylor & Fonseca are both pretty hyped but so are the prices and when you take into the equation that you can purchase around 2-3 bottles of Fonseca 1985 for the same price as the cost of one of those to mentioned bottle, I know what I find to be the better deal. Especially when the Fonseca 1985 show so young and fruity.

You also mention that you normally only drink half a bottle when you meet with your father suggests to be that either you should be buying Vintage port in halves as you mention, get a Coravin or simply buy tawny or LBV.

With that said I will make some suggestions (And please let us know what kinds of style you and your father prefer)

1970 Warre's
1977 Ferreira (Great value for the money)
1983 Gould Campbell
1985 Fonseca (This is stellar and you should get x2)
1985 Graham's (This is more mature than the Fonseca and for me is the best drinking wine out of the vintage)
1997 Vesuvio (Starting to mature, but is so delicious right now)
2003 Niepoort
2011 Vieira de Sousa

Some tawny as well

1967 Pocas Colheita
1976 Wiese & Krohn Colheita
1982 Dalva Colheita
20 YO Ramos Pinto
30 YO DR
40 YO Quinta da Romaneira

Should land you at around $2000

[John M.]

My Favorite LBVs are

Smith Woodhouse
Warres
Quinta do Crasto

All are unfiltered so you'll have to decant them.

If you can find one, a crusted Port is great, too.