The challenge of the French vs. the Portuguese

[Roy Hersh]

A blind tasting by an expert panel in Hong Kong pitted the greats of France against the stalwarts of Portugal. The results:

http://www.winebuzz.hk/2011/06/15/the-j ... ese-wines/

[Andy Velebil]

We all know Portugal makes some great wines, but this tasting along with the legendary Paris tastings show that Bordeaux is a wine that is WAY over hyped and priced. With respect to the French they are no longer the only dominating wine appellation anymore. There are plenty of other areas making wine just as good or better then they do AND at a fraction of the price. It's tradition that they are holding on to, nothing wrong with that, but at some point you have to reevaluate how you do things so you can stay ahead. In that regard I think they're starting to fall behind.

I used 2004 as a vintage to compare using wine searcher. Lets look at the Latour with an a current price of about $600-800 a bottle, it got 3rd place at the tasting. Lets look at Quinta Vale d Maria with a current price of $45-50 a bottle, it tied for 4th place. One could buy a case of Portuguese wine for the price of one French wine....I think that sums it up

[Moses Botbol]

For most of us, we've been beating this drum for many years. We must silence this author or we may see price increases .

In all seriousness, how many $6 bottles of wine age well 20 years and fool people of the real price when served blind? Dao's do that all day long.

[Frederick Blais]

I do not write this at the defence of Bordeaux wines, me too, I'd like to buy the 1st growth again, but I'm not able anymore. The price are mostly set by the demand vs offer. If Bordeaux would still release their wines at 200$ a piece for the 1st growth, there would be so many people making more money with these wines than the Chateaux itsef, which I think is a nonsense. Any person inventing, creating, producing a good is not making it so others can make more money than them.

Now why so much demand and so much hype around these wines!? Because of past glories. There are not many wines nowadays who can claim they can last 50-70 years effortless in a bottle and still blow you away. Many say they will but none can really prove it, Bordeaux can! And when you read through all those books written in the last 200 years, there are many reference to those glorious wine. Once the reader got interest into wines, he wants to drink the same stuff his sophisticated hero was.

Anyway, when the Bordeaux 1961 was released it was cheap, so is Vale Maria and other great portuguese today, we can only hope that in 50 years these Portuguese wines will be glories we can talk about and tell our grand son how cheap we bought those wines and how many times we drank them, just like people who boughts 61 and drank cases of these are propably saying today.

What is also protecting the Douro is that so far James or Robert(to my knowledge) have not given any of their wines a perfect score claiming they were the next Lafite or Petrus. They did that in tuscany, Australia, California and I'm damn pretty happy that they have not in Douro. Because price stay low, viticulture is not changing to mimic anything else and wines do age well. Too many Tuscan, Australian and California wines that wanted to impress those mans were fantastic wines uppon release and did not deliver better after a few years in my cellar.

[Andy Velebil]

I do not write this at the defence of Bordeaux wines, me too, I'd like to buy the 1st growth again, but I'm not able anymore. The price are mostly set by the demand vs offer. If Bordeaux would still release their wines at 200$ a piece for the 1st growth, there would be so many people making more money with these wines than the Chateaux itsef, which I think is a nonsense. Any person inventing, creating, producing a good is not making it so others can make more money than them.

Then how do explain so many other wine producers who make just as high scoring wines refuse to raise their prices to these stratospheric levels? If we look at the sheer quantity that some of these French wine makers produce, 30,000+ bottles, then compare that to an equally high scoring wine such as Crasto's Ponte or Maria Teresa which is a small fraction of that yet it sell for hundreds less and still sell out almost immediately. A producer has a LOT of control over pricing and IMO some French producers are doing nothing but price gouging now.

Obviously you can't control the secondary market, but there is a lot you can do to control the price at which your distributors and importers sell it for. One thing that would help is the early scores some reviewers do from barrel samples should be stopped. This is a whole other topic, but how do you definitely rate a wine that hasn't even had the final blend yet and can end up being a slightly different wine that was reviewed (which has happened)? Yet alone they wait for, mainly Parker, to review the wines then they set their prices. To me that boarders on collusion with him as rater. They should set their prices, make the final blend and let the chips fall where they may. If they make a good product then they have nothing to worry about.

Now why so much demand and so much hype around these wines!? Because of past glories. There are not many wines nowadays who can claim they can last 50-70 years effortless in a bottle and still blow you away. Many say they will but none can really prove it, Bordeaux can! And when you read through all those books written in the last 200 years, there are many reference to those glorious wine. Once the reader got interest into wines, he wants to drink the same stuff his sophisticated hero was.

I would disagree. I've had the great fortune to drink many old bottles of French, American, and other wines thanks to very generous wine friends. About a year or so ago I had this same discussion with a friend who's a major older wine collector and even he stated that he's had far more disappointments with old Bordeaux not showing well and far better experiences with old California Cabs holding up better over the long haul. I think this is one of those myths that has perpetuated and isn't really true. Just look at the results from the re-judgement of Paris that took place in 2006. The top 5 wines...YES the TOP 5 WINES, were all California Cabs. I think that alone shows how well a good Cali wine can age.

What is also protecting the Douro is that so far James or Robert(to my knowledge) have not given any of their wines a perfect score claiming they were the next Lafite or Petrus. They did that in tuscany, Australia, California and I'm damn pretty happy that they have not in Douro....Too many Tuscan, Australian and California wines that wanted to impress those mans were fantastic wines uppon release and did not deliver better after a few years in my cellar.

We can only hope this doesn't happen in the Douro.

[Brian C.]

Andy,

Pricing is a reflection of the market. What Bordeaux has that no Portuguese table wine region has is universal recognition as a status symbol, whether it's truly deserved or not. The following Gordon Gekko quote from the first Wall Street movie explains it best: "This painting here? I bought it ten years ago for sixty thousand dollars. I could sell it today for six hundred. The illusion has become real, and the more real it becomes, the more desperately they want it. Capitalism at its finest." With Bordeaux, the illusion became real long ago. That is why the new money in China is chasing after Bordeaux first growths before any other region. If you want to keep up with the Joneses, you buy the first growth Bordeaux. Nobody will even know or care about the Bussaco private bottling or Barca Velha you might have in your cellar, but they will sure care if you have a Chateau Margaux from the same year as your others.

Yeah, it's stupid, but that's how the market is priced. Anything can happen in a marketplace, though. If China's economy goes bad, what will happen to the price of Bordeaux? Look at how much cheaper most Barolos and Brunellos are right now than they were only a few years ago. In nearly every market, wines are going for cheaper prices than they were only a few years ago. CdP is cheaper, Amarone is cheaper, and nearly all of California is cheaper. A trip to Costco confirms this, not to mention what usually gets offered on wtso.com. Only a few select French wines have been immune to this downward pricing trend, it seems. This is great news for us bargain hunters, though. The QPR is only getting better by the day, it seems.

[Eric Ifune]

Bordeaux has always been more about business than wine making, even going back to the Henry VIII's days when taxing claret produced half of the royal court's income. It's large estates, large volume, and high prices.

[Frederick Blais]

Andy,

I've had limited access to old cali cabs, but from my experience, there is a dramatic change in quality for the long term bottle improvement with those wines, they used to make wines like the French in the past but not anymore. Most of the pre 1997 wines were far more digest than the post 1997. Level of alcool have raise way too much, there is more in the bottle, but I don't want to eat what's inside I want to drink it. One thing is sure, before 2000, California could make good wine each year while French could only in the good years. And still, years like 2007 is very weak in Bordeaux. Though, I'm not sure California will provide wines like Cheval Blanc 47 or Latour 61. Judgement of 2006... does it matters? Obviously not, because California have beaten the French, Chile did it, Portuguese did it in 2004 I think, but it does only entertain people, the price is not changing much after those events. Even with the Grand Jury Européen, once there was a 30$ bottle that was rated above all.

For Crasto wines, yes they sell very quick, they could probably increase the price of the wine a little bit, but not that much. The day they will sell their wines instantly at 150$ and the next day everyone can sell it back at 300$, that day he will be able to increase its price a lot, if he wants of course. There is not yet a secondary market for Portuguese wines as there is for Bordeaux. Miguel is only waiting for one of is wine to get 100 pts WS to cash in!

[Andy Velebil]

@ Brian,
It's interesting to see BDX, and some other areas, put such a huge emphasis on China. What will be even more interesting is when the Chinese tire of BDX wine and move onto something else. Something I have no doubt will eventually happen, exactly when though is anyone's guess. As we all know the Chinese are the main players keeping prices so high and when that collapses I'm guessing there will be some major ramifications to the BDX industry. Right now all they are doing is catering to a specific market and forcing out many of their previously long-term loyal customers, a dangerous business model IMO.

[Andy Velebil]

Andy,

I've had limited access to old cali cabs, but from my experience, there is a dramatic change in quality for the long term bottle improvement with those wines, they used to make wines like the French in the past but not anymore. Most of the pre 1997 wines were far more digest than the post 1997. Level of alcool have raise way too much, there is more in the bottle, but I don't want to eat what's inside I want to drink it. One thing is sure, before 2000, California could make good wine each year while French could only in the good years. And still, years like 2007 is very weak in Bordeaux. Though, I'm not sure California will provide wines like Cheval Blanc 47 or Latour 61. Judgement of 2006... does it matters? Obviously not, because California have beaten the French, Chile did it, Portuguese did it in 2004 I think, but it does only entertain people, the price is not changing much after those events. Even with the Grand Jury Européen, once there was a 30$ bottle that was rated above all.

For Crasto wines, yes they sell very quick, they could probably increase the price of the wine a little bit, but not that much. The day they will sell their wines instantly at 150$ and the next day everyone can sell it back at 300$, that day he will be able to increase its price a lot, if he wants of course. There is not yet a secondary market for Portuguese wines as there is for Bordeaux. Miguel is only waiting for one of is wine to get 100 pts WS to cash in!

There has been a change in all wines in the past 20 years, more so in the past 10-12. You can't argue that even BDX has changed considerably to satisfy one reviewer. What remains to be seen is how well these BDX, like their Cali counterpoints, will hold up over the long term. IMO, I think most wines made in this overripe style won't make great old bones. Sure there will be some that will, but it will be more the exception than the rule. However, something we're already starting to see some 10 years later is many of these overripe high octane wines are not doing so well down the road and a lot of wine makers are slowly dialing back the ripeness and alcohol levels.

As for the 2006 Judgement results, yes it does matter to your arguement. It showed that served blind the Cali wines have held up better over time than the French ones did. As to 47 Cheval Blanc, which I've never had, but I dare say a late 1940's Inglenook (which I've had a couple times) would easily rival it. Or try an old Heintz Martha's Vineyard...amazing. Cali made some great wines back then, as did the French. But to say American wines don't have a track record is incorrect.

[Mahmoud Ali]

In all seriousness, how many $6 bottles of wine age well 20 years and fool people of the real price when served blind? Dao's do that all day long.

I thought I was the only one who aged inexpensive Dao. Now I know I'm not alone.

Mahmoud.

[Ronald Wortel]

For Crasto wines, yes they sell very quick, they could probably increase the price of the wine a little bit, but not that much. The day they will sell their wines instantly at 150$ and the next day everyone can sell it back at 300$, that day he will be able to increase its price a lot, if he wants of course. There is not yet a secondary market for Portuguese wines as there is for Bordeaux. Miguel is only waiting for one of is wine to get 100 pts WS to cash in!

In a way, this has already happened. Crasto's Touriga Nacional 2001 was the first Douro wine to receive a score over 95 points from WineSpectator (96 if I remember correctly). This used to be a wine that was modestly priced at 25 euro. After the WS score prices shot up, especially in the US. I was still able to buy a case at 25 euro per bottle, but newer vintages have been about double the price. Same wine, same quality, but higher demand and thus higher prices...

[Ray Barnes]

I was surprised by many of the top French crus classes that were not included in the tastings, like Chateaux Margaux, Haut Brion, Lafite Rothschild (especially in Hong Kong!), Montrose, Leoville Las-Cases, or even Ausone and Cheval Blanc. I'm not even sure there was enough of the top French heavyweights to make for a really fair competition, especially when Beycheville was in the mix, which is not regarded as a great wine.

Price is determined by, I think, quality, reputation, and demand. The top Bordeauxs score highly in all categories, and are priced accordingly. If and when the Asian market loses some enthusiasm for it, prices will remain high. Until then, they are not overpriced, if people are willing to pay for them. Perhaps those who pay over $1,000 a bottle for a 2009 first growth while still in the barrel, are not interested in value for money but quality regardless of price. That is their perogative.

I presently cannot afford the First Growths in a top vintage. Unless one has unlimited funds, one cannot have everything. I can afford the finest ports which are every bit as good as the First Growths. Thank heavens for that. As long as top tier French wine stays very expensive, I will continue to enjoy fabulous port - and excellent Portugese table wine.

Then there is of course madeira, which is the world's greatest wine, regardless of price. Blessed are those who love it and appreciate it. The ports are great too. That is more than enough for me.

[Tom D.]

Am I missing something? 11 wines tasted, and Bordeaux took the top 5 spots and Douro the remaining 6 spots. I'm not sure that's a Judgment of Paris type triumph for Portugal. It appears the scores were somewhat close, though, so perhaps that is something.

In any case, for my tastes, I'm not convinced it's a good thing for the Portugese to be trying to compete with anyone, if they're trying to gain attention. As I drink more and more Douro wines, I find myself wishing they showed more of their own varietal character and terroir, which I find exceptionally interesting when the winemaker allows it to speak. Many seem to instead try to mimic the generic, hot, overripe stuff the rest of the world is cranking out these days (even Bordeaux).

But I am admittedly a stubborn Old World curmudgeon

[Ray Barnes]

As a fellow Old World cur, I rechecked the results, which if read correctly show Bordeaux getting the top 4 outright, tied for 5th and alone in 7th (Beychevelle not surprisingly having the lowest ranking), altogether taking 6 of the top 7 among the 13 entrants. Perhaps Lafite Rothschild was excluded from this exercise, out of fear of a potential poor showing in a critical market segment. I am still dissapointed that Ch. Pontet Canet was left out.

If my assertion that madeira is either the world's finest wine, or at least shares such honors with Burgundy, if George Saintsbury's assessment is correct, then we should be thankful that madeira's price has not been not been subjected to the effects of high reputation and demand. That should provide sufficient consolation for those who lament the high cost of Bordeaux and Burgundy.

[Roy Hersh]

I am glad there's all this focus on Bordeaux in China. Sure, they like DRC too, but otherwise outside of a tiny percentage (businessmen, gift givers and restaurateurs/retailers), they don't know much about mainstream Burgundy. Personally, I hope they stick to Bordeaux. Unlike Andy, I don't foresee that bubble bursting unless China's economy does. And if that happens, the USA is doomed for far worse peril than the Chinese that own us.

I was surprised (in this thread) that the argument of French wine only was focused on Bdx. and henceforth only in relation to Cali Cabs, regarding ageability. I probably drink as much Italian wine as I do French and at least for reds, certainly own more of it. There are so many that age for decades that a very solid case could be made for Italy vs. France.

That said, let's get back to France vs. California. As a long time Pinot Noir lover, at least 15 years before the movie Sideways ... I have listened to serious investor/collector arguments of (French) Burgundy and (Cali) Pinot Noir, as to which is better and which ages better and which holds value longer. Heck, my own brother has driven me nuts with these discussions vs. Port (which he also enjoys, in addition to Madeira). I've had 100 year old red Burgs that were in amazing condition, but the oldest CA Pinot I've had that was still great was 1965. Heck, the grape wasn't even planted in CA for commercial purposes until the early 1950's. So it is almost a moot point. Pinot lovers probably should be arguing which is better, CA or Oregon.

In all seriousness, most people never get to drink CA Cabs (yes I know friends who own Martin Ray Cabs from the 1940s and others even earlier, but these are old men who bought these for next to nothing back in the day) with 50+ years of bottle age but there are a LOT more people around the world who are drinking Bordeaux from the 1960s and older ... ON A COMPARATIVE BASIS then there are with really old CALI CABS.

I like Bdx as much as the next guy, but don't ever think they rival the great Burgs. I look at the finest two or three Bordeaux that I've ever tasted (one each from 1955/1959/1961) and they just don't compare for me in what the best Burgs I've had from the same time frame. Yes they (Bdx) were outstanding in their own right and yes, I loved them. But the Burgs put me into a different stratosphere, that was considerably higher as the complexity level is ... FOR ME ... the ultimate expression of non-fortified red wine.

So my point is what?


Ray is correct, George Saintsbury was, and still IS, right.

Burgs (outclass Bdx and) are ONLY trumped by Madeira!

















Now we can get back to civil discussion on the notion of France vs. Portuguese wines. I do agree that once a Portuguese table wine receives a 98 point review from someone who is well-respected worldwide, no less 100 points someday ... that will be a game changer and the pricing as we know it today will look like what people were paying for top CA Cabs circa 1976 when the amazing 1974 vintage came to market. I will be a much older man by that point and will likely have stopped buying DOC wines altogether and will be drinking as many great old bottles as I can muster; even if I have to sip them through a long straw directly from the bottle.

[Ray Barnes]

Hi Roy, just as a footnote to this most interesting and always well thought out submission, in August 2006 I was given a bottle of Pinot Noir made by Thomas Kruse Winery in Gilroy CA. This wine was unlabelled and had been made in 1981. Mr. Kruse just pulled it from somewhere in his tasting room/cellar/chai (totally rustic and informal), and said, "it will be terrible, or it will be great - give it a whirl." Lo and behold, on September 1, it needed 45 minutes to breathe - and was anything but terrible.

I should be making the to you and Mr. Saintsbury.

[Ray Barnes]

PS - If there was a bonus from the Sideways movie, it had a negative effect on the price of Merlot, except Pomerol. For those who like this varietal, that helped to make up for the steep demand for Pinot Noir. I thought his burger joint uncorking of the 1961 Cheval Blanc, which has more than a dollop of merlot, was hilarious.

[Andy Velebil]

I am glad there's all this focus on Bordeaux in China. Sure, they like DRC too, but otherwise outside of a tiny percentage (businessmen, gift givers and restaurateurs/retailers), they don't know much about mainstream Burgundy. Personally, I hope they stick to Bordeaux. Unlike Andy, I don't foresee that bubble bursting unless China's economy does. And if that happens, the USA is doomed for far worse peril than the Chinese that own us.

Yes, hopefully they only stick to Bordeaux and not anything else

History has shown that the Bordeaux buying bubble will burst, it's not a matter of if, it's when. This has far less to do with the economy and far more to do with a certain part of the culture using a product as a status symbol. They have a history of using products to show social status and that is an ever changing thing. Currently Bordeaux is trendy and that will pass at some point and they will move onto something else. When they do move on it's going to hurt and probably hurt big. Bordeaux's current pricing structure is out of control as evident even by BB&R taking a far smaller pre-arrival order than any time in recent memory and have even publically stated the pricing has gotten too high. A number of wine retailers and wine industry magazines have stated many millionaires have called it quits on buying Bordeaux in the latest offerings due to what can only be called price gouging. Those last points should be a wake up call because when China slows down or stops buying what will Bordeaux do?

[Roy Hersh]

Make less.